Author Topic: Chloramines coming to a city water supply near you...you may already have it.  (Read 6743 times)

Offline oscarvan

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1707
    • View Profile
OK, what does the Campden tablet do with it? Does it precipitate out? neutralize? My HLT is sort of permanently mounted, having to take it down every time to clean out would be a pain in the arse.....
Wooden Shoe Brew Works (not a commercial operation) Bethlehem, PA
http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/WSBW/WSBW_All_grain_Setup.html
I brew WITH style..... not necessarily TO style.....

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 14113
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
OK, what does the Campden tablet do with it? Does it precipitate out? neutralize? My HLT is sort of permanently mounted, having to take it down every time to clean out would be a pain in the arse.....

http://www.byo.com/stories/wizard/article/section/121-mr-wizard/475-clearing-chloramine-a-historical-hopping-mr-wizard
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline SpanishCastleAle

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
We have had Chloramines for many years and one month per year they switch back to chlorine. The trick with filtering is to filter SLOWLY. A garden hose full blast probably ain't gonna cut it and waiting for things to fill at a slow rate is gonna drive you nuts. I actually filter twice using a whole house filter and then a filter for the brewing water. The whole house filter seems to bring it to a tolerable level and the point of use (in reality another whole house or under sink filter) knocks out the rest and I don't find I have to slow the flow rate considerably. YMMV
Same here, they douche the whole system once a year with, what seems like, a much stronger solution of just chlorine.  Anyone know why this is necessary?  When we switched to chloramines I gave up on my African Cichlid aquarium, just too much hassle and a I lost several fish.  I don't think you can use campden for aquariums.

Offline hokerer

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2639
  • Manassas, VA
    • View Profile
I don't think you can use campden for aquariums.

For aquariums (and some folks use them for brewing), they make drops that'll remove chlorine/chloramine the same way that campden does...



http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752208&lmdn=Fish
Joe

Offline kramerog

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1161
    • View Profile
On Saturday, I added crushed Campden tablets to brewing water and it just sunk to the bottom.  Do you need to stir it until it dissolves?  Do i have an old or bad batch of Campden tablets? I added 4 crushed Campden tablets to 7 gal of water to dechlorinate and deoxygenate water following boiler water treatment guidelines.
Brewers of South Suburbia
Brixie's Brewers
Oak Park Homebrewers

Offline Tim McManus

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
    • View Profile
    • Haskell Brewing Company
I was referring more to the canister's efficiency in stripping out chloramine.  I'm not worried about the rest.

Unless you trickle the water through the canister extremely slowly, it's basically buying you nothing.  Campden tabs are cheap.

If that were the case, then an in-line canister filter for home (like the ones found attached to a well filtration system) are useless too.  Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand the effectiveness of a active charcoal canister filter.

If I understand correctly, the pressure from a well averages around 40 psi and from city water it can be anywhere from 40 psi to 70 psi.  So any implementation of an active charcoal canister filter in either of these scenarios is pointless.  If so, what is the maximum pressure rating for a active charcoal canister filter?  If GPM is a better way to rate it, let me know.
Tim McManus
Haskell, NJ

Offline Slowbrew

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2051
  • The Slowly Losing IT Brewery in Urbandale, IA
    • View Profile
On Saturday, I added crushed Campden tablets to brewing water and it just sunk to the bottom.  Do you need to stir it until it dissolves?  Do i have an old or bad batch of Campden tablets? I added 4 crushed Campden tablets to 7 gal of water to dechlorinate and deoxygenate water following boiler water treatment guidelines.

If I remember the label on my Camden tablets, the dose is 1 tablet/20 gallons.  I crush each tablet using a spoon and bowl to stand in for a mortar and pestle.  When I say crush I really mean "turn to powder".  It still takes a bit of time for the dust to dissolve.

Paul
Where the heck are we going?  And what's with this hand basket?

Offline hokerer

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2639
  • Manassas, VA
    • View Profile
[If that were the case, then an in-line canister filter for home (like the ones found attached to a well filtration system) are useless too.  Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand the effectiveness of a active charcoal canister filter.

If I understand correctly, the pressure from a well averages around 40 psi and from city water it can be anywhere from 40 psi to 70 psi.  So any implementation of an active charcoal canister filter in either of these scenarios is pointless.  If so, what is the maximum pressure rating for a active charcoal canister filter?  If GPM is a better way to rate it, let me know.

Well, a quick google search yields...

Activated carbon does not absorb chloramines but rather removes them through its ability to act as a catalyst for the chemical breakdown of chloramines to innocuous chlorides in water. This catalytic reaction involves the formation of a carbon oxide intermediate (CO*). This reaction is as follows:
NH2Cl + H2O + C* = NH3 + Cl- + H+ + CO*
2NH2Cl + CO*= N2 + 2Cl- + 2H+ + H2O + C*
Fine mesh sizes of activated carbon remove chloramines more efficiently since they have greater surface areas and allow faster access to catalytic sites. Also, activated carbon that has been “acclimated” to achieve increased carbon oxide sites improves chloramine removal. For new activated carbon, initial dosing with chlorine to preoxidize the carbon may result in more effective chloramine removal. A bed contact time of 10 minutes or greater is required for complete catalysis of chloramines.


http://www.wqa.org/pdf/TechBulletins/TB-Chloramine.pdf

So it looks like your water needs to spend 10 minutes in the canister to have all the chloramine removed.  Yes, not completely useless, but pretty impractical.

And the canister is plenty useful for all the other stuff it filters, just not so much with chloramines.
Joe

Offline narvin

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1473
  • Baltimore
    • View Profile
I was referring more to the canister's efficiency in stripping out chloramine.  I'm not worried about the rest.

Unless you trickle the water through the canister extremely slowly, it's basically buying you nothing.  Campden tabs are cheap.

If that were the case, then an in-line canister filter for home (like the ones found attached to a well filtration system) are useless too.  Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand the effectiveness of a active charcoal canister filter.


They are plenty useful -- for making water taste better.  They aren't useful in removing chloramine completely, which is bad for beer making since chlorophenols have a low taste threshold.
Please do not reply if your[sic] an evil alien!
Thanks

Offline Tim McManus

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
    • View Profile
    • Haskell Brewing Company
So it looks like your water needs to spend 10 minutes in the canister to have all the chloramine removed.  Yes, not completely useless, but pretty impractical.

And the canister is plenty useful for all the other stuff it filters, just not so much with chloramines.

Cool, that helps, thanks!

Campden tablets it is!
Tim McManus
Haskell, NJ

Offline narvin

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1473
  • Baltimore
    • View Profile
I'd still use a charcoal filter, by the way, since it can help with other things.  If something tastes bad in water, it will taste bad in beer.
Please do not reply if your[sic] an evil alien!
Thanks

Offline Tim McManus

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
    • View Profile
    • Haskell Brewing Company
I'd still use a charcoal filter, by the way, since it can help with other things.  If something tastes bad in water, it will taste bad in beer.

Oh. no doubt.  It's still going to be there, but at least I know that it will be ineffective to use on chloramines.  Additionally, I need to do some research to determine the optimal flow rate for the filter.  No point in running 80 psi through it if its effectiveness is hampered.  I just need to find the right step down fittings to get to the right pressure or flow.
Tim McManus
Haskell, NJ

Offline richardt

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
I've tried the RV in-line garden hose activated charcoal filter a few times.  Even turned it down to barely a trickle to allow maximum contact time with the charcoal (though I really doubt had the requisite 10 minutes of contact time).  I still noticed a slight off aroma and flavor (slightly phenolic, but not as bad).  I have not done the campden tablets because my water profile is just horrible (high bicarbonate and sulfate levels).  I've had much better success brewing better tasting beers since I've gone the route of buying RO water (5 gallons for $1.50) at the grocery store.  Building the water profile is easy with brew salt additions using the various brewing water calculators.  I like the EZ Water Calculator's simplicity and I like Martin Brungard's Bru'n water calculator for its thoroughness.  I've had great success with both and find myself using Martin's calculator successfully to hit the mash pH and end up with great tasting beer.

Offline tschmidlin

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8197
  • Redmond, WA
    • View Profile
I would use potassium metabisulfite powder.  It does the same thing, is cheaper, and is already powdered.  You're paying a premium to have it in tablet form, and then you're crushing it.  It's a little harder to measure, but less than 1/8 tsp of the powder will cover 20 gallons.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline weithman5

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1681
  • naperville, il
    • View Profile
where do you get the powder? much easier for me since i do such small batches?
Don AHA member