Author Topic: First Recipe Help  (Read 1404 times)

Offline Tommy C

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First Recipe Help
« on: July 05, 2011, 05:06:51 AM »
So I've been reading my way through Ray Daniels Designing Great Beers book and as I read I've been messing with recipe formulation to see if I have absorbed what I've read.  I was wondering if I could get some input on the grain bill/hops(I still have not read the chapter on aroma/flavor hops or yeast) I've put together so far to see if it's in the ballpark of being correct and ask for suggestions on how to tweak it to create a drinkable beer as I finish working on it.

It's an Imperial Stout, extract w/grains.

12.2 lbs light dry extract
2 lbs black patent malt
1.6 lbs crystal malt
16 oz chocolate malt
4 oz Cascade hops 6% alpha(60min)

My other questions is I triple checked my math and it worked out to be 80% of the bill was the extract but then when I punched it into brewtarget it only came out to 73% of the bill, with an extract brew should I be shooting to adjust it to get the extract to at least 80%?

Any suggestions on what to change/add or general recipe formulation tips I would appreciate as well as any ideas on flavor/aroma hops.

Thanks!

Offline Jimmy K

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2011, 06:30:00 AM »
That is the most black patent and chocolate malt I've ever seen in a recipe. I don't think the chocolate is a problem, but the black patent could be a roasted punch in the face. Things I'd think about - Use some caraffa (which is debittered) in place of some black patent (and ask yourself if you really need that much roast, maybe you do, I don't know). Mix up the crystal with a couple different crystal types for complexity - the different L-levels have different flavors from light caramel to raisiny. Maybe 0.7 lbs 40L, 0.7lbs 80L, 0.2lbs 120L.

Chances are that steeping won't fully extract the sugars from the grains. Any calculated percentages will be based on ideal extraction, not reality, so I wouldn't worry about the percentages. Be prepared for a slightly lower than predicted OG.

Possibly more important than the recipe details - pitch plenty of yeast in this beer.
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Offline gmac

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2011, 07:10:59 AM »
If it's a stout, I'd sub out a whole lot of that black patent and replace it with a bit of roasted barley to give it that characteristic stout taste.  Also, I think you've got way, way too much black patent and even chocolate.  Personally, I think it's gonna taste extremely burnt and unpleasant with that much BPM. 
What crystal are you planning to use?  I'm assuming something mid-range (40?) but there are lots of choices as well.
Good luck and I'm sure it will turn out great and I think you're on the right track but I think you may be a bit over-enthusiastic when it comes to the specialty grains.  It takes less than you think to do what you want in my experience.

Offline majorvices

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 07:14:27 AM »
I disagree that you would want to use carafa for this recipe. You want a good amount of roasted malt character for a RIS. I also don't mind the Black Patent over the Roasted Barley (though RB is more traditional for a stout). I could go either way with that. Personally  I think you are on the right track and you could keep the grain bill as is (though a darker crystal malt is not a bad suggestion).

The only question I have is: do you think your OG:BU ratio is dialed in? I think your need more bittering hops. I'd go with a high alpha acid hop for the 60 min. addition and save the cascade for the finish. What IBU are you looking at?
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Offline tygo

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2011, 07:33:22 AM »
Personally  I think you are on the right track and you could keep the grain bill as is (though a darker crystal malt is not a bad suggestion).

Including the 2 pounds of Black Patent?
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Offline majorvices

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 07:38:59 AM »
If its a 1.090+ beer, sure! Ya'll go look at JZ's recipe for RIS and see how much roasted malt he uses. IMO the "black patent is harsh and ashy" thing is a myth. I would agree that it is just about on the line of being over the top, but I wouldn't use less than 1.5 lbs.

That said, like I said above, Roasted Barley is more traditional. Might be a better choice.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 07:45:04 AM by majorvices »
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Offline bluesman

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 07:58:18 AM »
Here's a RIS that I brewed over a year ago that was wood aged as well. It is awesome right now. There's a healthy amount of roast aroma and flavor but not overly astringent in the flavor. On the next recipe I will increase the Roast Barley to 1.25 and the Chocolate to 1lb to give the roast profile a little boost for the long haul.

Russian Imperial Stout 2010
Imperial Stout

 
Type: All Grain
Date: 3/22/2010
Batch Size: 6.0 gal
Brewer: Bluesman
Boil Size: 9.28 gal Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 180 min  Equipment: My Equipment 
 
Ingredients
 
Amount Item Type % or IBU
21.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 79.25 %
2.00 lb Brown Malt (65.0 SRM) Grain 7.55 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 3.77 %
1.00 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 3.77 %
1.00 lb Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 3.77 %
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.89 %
2.00 oz Mt. Hood [5.10 %] (180 min) Hops 22.8 IBU
1.00 oz Centennial [11.20 %] (150 min) Hops 25.0 IBU
0.80 oz Magnum [14.20 %] (120 min) Hops 25.2 IBU
0.50 oz Zeus [16.40 %] (30 min) Hops 12.8 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [9.30 %] (30 min) Hops 14.5 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.00 %] (5 min) Hops 1.6 IBU
1 tsp  Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
6.0 gal Poland Spring (R) Water 
1/2 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale 
2 Pkgs SafAle US Ale (Fermentis #S-05) Yeast-Ale 

 
Beer Profile
 
Measured Original Gravity: 1.100 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 9.74 %  Actual Alcohol by Vol: 10.51 %
Bitterness: 101.8 IBU
Est Color: 41.0 SRM
 
Mash Profile
 
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body Total Grain Weight: 26.50 lb
Sparge Water: 0.00 gal Grain Temperature: 60.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH
 
Single Infusion, Full Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 34.00 qt of water at 163.9 F 151.0 F
10 min Sparge Add 20.00 qt of water at 201.0 F 168.0 F

Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage
 
I achieved 68% efficiency.
Ron Price

Offline Tommy C

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2011, 04:41:22 AM »
That is the most black patent and chocolate malt I've ever seen in a recipe. I don't think the chocolate is a problem, but the black patent could be a roasted punch in the face. Things I'd think about - Use some caraffa (which is debittered) in place of some black patent (and ask yourself if you really need that much roast, maybe you do, I don't know). Mix up the crystal with a couple different crystal types for complexity - the different L-levels have different flavors from light caramel to raisiny. Maybe 0.7 lbs 40L, 0.7lbs 80L, 0.2lbs 120L.

Chances are that steeping won't fully extract the sugars from the grains. Any calculated percentages will be based on ideal extraction, not reality, so I wouldn't worry about the percentages. Be prepared for a slightly lower than predicted OG.

Possibly more important than the recipe details - pitch plenty of yeast in this beer.


Thanks for the suggestions.  About how far back do you suggest dialing back the black patent?  Right now it's about 12% of the grain bill, should I perhaps bring it back between 8-10% and take that difference and replace it with the caraffa?
Since this is my first recipe I'm writing I'm really just focused on created something that will be drinkable that I can learn a lot about recipe formulation in the process.

Offline Tommy C

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2011, 05:29:34 AM »

The only question I have is: do you think your OG:BU ratio is dialed in? I think your need more bittering hops. I'd go with a high alpha acid hop for the 60 min. addition and save the cascade for the finish. What IBU are you looking at?

I'm shooting for an IBU somewhere around 60-65.  Thanks for the tip with the going with a high alpha hops.

Offline Jimmy K

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2011, 05:50:06 AM »
I would bring the black patent back to one pound, that would be 6%. Though obviously that is debatable, maybe 1.5lbs would be OK. I like bluesman's recipe, unfortunately you can't use victory or brown malt without mashing.
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Offline bluesman

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2011, 06:38:22 AM »
I would bring the black patent back to one pound, that would be 6%. Though obviously that is debatable, maybe 1.5lbs would be OK. I like bluesman's recipe, unfortunately you can't use victory or brown malt without mashing.

Yes it score a 38 in the wood aged category of the first round of the NHC which I thought was a worthy score.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2011, 07:44:36 AM »
I can attest that 1.5-2lbs of Roasted Barley makes the cut. You really want a substantial roasted character. I can also attest that I have had stouts made with Black Patent that were very good, so a RIS made with Black Patent could make the cut. Perhaps 2 lbs is pushing the envelope - but I don't think 1.5 lbs would be. My .02.
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Offline gmac

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2011, 09:30:54 AM »
I've never made an imperial stout, only regular stout from DME and grains.  I didn't realize how much malt you had in there.  I'd just ignore my earlier comment and go with what you've been told by others.

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2011, 11:52:38 AM »
I can attest that 1.5-2lbs of Roasted Barley makes the cut. You really want a substantial roasted character. I can also attest that I have had stouts made with Black Patent that were very good, so a RIS made with Black Patent could make the cut. Perhaps 2 lbs is pushing the envelope - but I don't think 1.5 lbs would be. My .02.

+1

My .02; if you're the kind of person that adds Carafa to stouts and porters you need to come to the realization that you don't like stouts and porters.  This is completely acceptable; after all there are sixty-ish different styles to enjoy.  We have names for the styles of beer that are darkened with Carafa and RIS isn't one of them.  I’m all for brewing to ones own style, but to say I’d like to sub out the wheat in this wheat beer just doesn’t make sense (or the roast out of this RIS).  FWIW, I use less black malt in my RIS, but my total amount of roasted malts is about the same.  The key to bluesman’s recipe is that he added the 2# of brown malt.   

Offline WDE97

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Re: First Recipe Help
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2011, 12:19:17 PM »
I would agree about cutting down a little on the black patent and adding a few other grains for complexity.  I don't use much black patent compared to several other's suggestions, but I do add the roasted and black roasted barley.  Definitely use a big enough yeast starter, and a blow-off hose instead of an airlock (unless you want to mop the ceiling like Weaze).    Here is my Russian Imperial Stout. The last time I made this, it hit an OG of 1.116.

Russian Imperial Stout
Size: 5.5 gal
Efficiency: 75.0%

Original Gravity: 1.107 (1.075 - 1.115)
Terminal Gravity: 1.026 (1.018 - 1.030)
Color: 42.38 (30.0 - 40.0)
Alcohol: 10.83% (8.0% - 12.0%)
Bitterness: 62.9 (50.0 - 90.0)

Ingredients:
17.5 lb Maris Otter
1.0 lb Barley Flaked
1.0 lb Crystal Malt 80°L
1.0 lb Roasted Barley
0.5 lb Caramunich® TYPE II
0.5 lb Chocolate Malt
0.5 lb British Black Patent
0.5 lb Black Roasted Barley
1.0 oz Magnum (14.5%) - added during boil, boiled 40 min
1.0 oz Glacier (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 40 min
1.0 oz Glacier (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 10 min
0.5 oz Fuggle (4.8%) - steeped after boil
0.5 oz Willamette (5.0%) - steeped after boil
0.5 oz Fuggle (4.8%) - steeped after boil
0.5 oz Willamette (5.0%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
1.0 ea WYeast 1028 London Ale



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