[NorthernIke]

I'm brewing my first Dortmunder Export in a few weeks.  I've seen a lot of recipes that call for melanoidin malt.  I don't have any, so I'm thinking a decoction schedule would be appropriate here.

Any body out there have a mash schedule that they like for a Dortmunder?  I'm thinking about doing one of Kai's decoction mash schedules.  This one in particular:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing#Hochkurz_Double_Decoction

However, I think this style is supposed to have some body, so maybe a long rest at 145°F would cause the beer to dry out too much.

Any ideas on a good schedule?  Maybe the melanodin flavor is overrated in this style and I should just stick to a single infusion...

[Kaiser]

However, I think this style is supposed to have some body, so maybe a long rest at 145°F would cause the beer to dry out too much.

You have to keep in mind that a substantial part of the mash is not subjected to a long 145F rest since it is in the decoction. In addition to that conversion is not as complete as 145 as it will be at 160 later. That means you’ll be converting more starch once you return the decoction and raise the temp. That starch will be converted into mostly unfermentable dextrins.

In addition to that Export beers are supposed to be better attenuated and have a slightly higher gravity that “normal” beers.

30 min at 145F before pulling the decoction is a good start.

Kai

[Thirsty_Monk]

Also decoction will expose more starches for conversion that would be otherwise unavailable.

[NorthernIke]

Great.  Thanks guys!  I'm going to do the following decoction mash schedule.

60 minutes at Beta rest (145°F); 45 minutes at Alpha rest (160°F); 10 minutes at mashout. This is going to be a Hockhurz Double Decoction mash schedule:

• Mash in at 145°F at 1.8 qt/lb
• Pull first decoction after 30 minutes.  Bring to boil over 20 minutes, boil for 10 minutes, add back to get to 160°F
• Pull second decoction after 20 minutes.  Bring to boil over 15 mintes,boil for 10 minutes, add back to get to 168°F

This should be fun!!

[NorthernIke]

Oh...one more thing (I can go off-topic if this is my own post right?).  I need to build the water profile.  Based on Blatz' Dortmunder Gold recipe:

Sodium:  5 ppm
Calcium: 107 ppm
Magnesium:  7 ppm
Sulfate: 120 ppm
Chloride:  70 ppm
Bicarbonate:  97 ppm

RA:  -2

Does that look okay?

Oh...the beer is going to be 70% Pils and 30% Munich I.  Estimated SRM is 5.5.

[bluesman]

Here's a schedule that Pilsner Urquell uses. It's a triple decoction which is commonly used for pilsners. I use this schedule for making German Pilsners. For an ale it might be a bit overkill but should still work.

Triple-decoction mashing: Pilsner Urquell's mash is performed in 200-hL (170-bbl) vessels and follows the same triple-decoction method used for the past 75 years. Thick portions of the mash are drawn off at three different times over the course of more than four hours. Each portion, or decoction, is heated to saccharification temperature, then boiled briefly, and finally returned to the main mash vessel to step up the main mash's temperature. The mash begins with cold water stirred into the grains; hot water is added to bring the temperature to 95 °F for an acid rest. (According to the brewery's quality control manager, Pavel Prucha, the water-to-grain ratio is 1.85 L to 1 kg.) The first decoction raises the temperature to around 127 °F to break down the larger proteins; the second addition raises the mash temperature to 143 °F for starch conversion; and the third brings the temperature to about 163 °F for mash-out .

Prost 

Kai should be chiming in any second now. 

[Kaiser]

Kai should be chiming in any second now. 

I thought I did. Somehow my comment, that the water should work, got lost.

[Thirsty_Monk]

Great.  Thanks guys!  I'm going to do the following decoction mash schedule.

60 minutes at Beta rest (145°F); 45 minutes at Alpha rest (160°F); 10 minutes at mashout. This is going to be a Hockhurz Double Decoction mash schedule:

• Mash in at 145°F at 1.8 qt/lb
• Pull first decoction after 30 minutes.  Bring to boil over 20 minutes, boil for 10 minutes, add back to get to 160°F
• Pull second decoction after 20 minutes.  Bring to boil over 15 mintes,boil for 10 minutes, add back to get to 168°F

This should be fun!!

This looks great.
Your last Decoction to mash out should be thin one.
You do not want to expose more starches because you do not have enzymes any more.
These days I just rise temp for mash out and do not bother with last decoction.
 

[NorthernIke]

Thanks for the input.  I just learned about the reasoning behind the thin final decoction from an interview with Muffasa from BJs. It is as you say, not to release starch compounds that won't be coverted.  He called it a turbid decoction.  I will keep you posted on my results.