Author Topic: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da  (Read 1337 times)

Offline Kirk

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Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« on: July 12, 2011, 09:31:51 PM »
I gave some of Gordon's mashing ideas a good go last Saturday.  In a Schwarzbier recipe no less, I mashed only the base malts, adding some crystal and chocolate at vorlauf, and then added some cold-processed caraffa and roast extract near boil's end.  I was surprised by how much it raised the OG, but it makes sense.  Good thing I didn't overdo it, as I only added less than 2% each of crystal and chocolate at vorlauf, and only enough extract to get the color to the low end of the Schwarzbier range.  But I am wondering if it might finish a little too sweet.  Interesting though.  Anyone else tried this out?
Kirk Howell

Offline Kirk

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Re: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2011, 01:44:40 PM »
OK, since it's odd that no one has responded yet, I'll try to write more objectively and intelligently:
This isn't about mashing, but rather about post-mash additions.  As Gordon Strong suggested in his new book, roasted grains add bitterness when mashed, and as an alternative can be added at mashout (as can crystal grains).  Also, the steeped extract of roasted grains can be added near the end of the boil, or in fermentation.   
Many do not do a mashout, but the principle still applies IMO, that if you steep malted grains after the enzymes have been denatured your OG will rise correspondingly, but so will your FG.  Even if batch sparging, if you drain, then add hot sparge water, let it sit awhile, add grain, let it steep, a similar result happens.
I can see where this might come in handy, like if time got away from you on your mash schedule, and you knew that it was going to attenuate too much, you could raise the grain bed temperature to mashout levels, let it sit to denature, add some grain (even base grain), let it steep, and get some body back into the wort.
Anyway, before trying it I had not considered all this, and to me it's kind of interesting.  Cheers
Kirk Howell

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2011, 01:59:37 PM »
I think the result of cold steeping and or adding after mash is that no sugars are added. particularly with the cold steeping. You are probably not disolving any (or much) starch into steeping liqour in a cold steep. Regardless I would thing that if no enzymes are present the only thing you MIGHT add beyond color and some flavour is unconverted starch which will make things cloudy
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Offline narvin

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Re: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2011, 02:12:28 PM »
Many do not do a mashout, but the principle still applies IMO, that if you steep malted grains after the enzymes have been denatured your OG will rise correspondingly, but so will your FG.  Even if batch sparging, if you drain, then add hot sparge water, let it sit awhile, add grain, let it steep, a similar result happens.


Steeping grains like crystal malts don't need to be mashed since the enzymatic action that converts starch to sugar happened during the malting process.  A portion of the sugars contributed by crystal malts are unfermentable, but you should get the same result whether you steep or mash them.

More on steeping grains:

http://howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13-1.html

http://howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13-2.html
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 02:14:02 PM by narvin »
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Offline Kirk

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Re: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2011, 02:31:02 PM »
Steeping grains like crystal malts don't need to be mashed since the enzymatic action that converts starch to sugar happened during the malting process.  A portion of the sugars contributed by crystal malts are unfermentable, but you should get the same result whether you steep or mash them.
/quote]


Wow, Narvin, that's awesome.  I read the book, but that doesn't mean I remember all that it said.
Kirk Howell

Offline dannyjed

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Re: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2011, 06:28:57 PM »
I think I might try this the next time a make a India Black Ale.  The last time I made one the roasty, bitter flavor was clashing with the citrusy hops. I was thinking of changing the hops, but I might just give this a try.
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Offline denny

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Re: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2011, 08:53:53 AM »
I think I might try this the next time a make a India Black Ale.  The last time I made one the roasty, bitter flavor was clashing with the citrusy hops. I was thinking of changing the hops, but I might just give this a try.

Or just use some Sinamar.
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Offline dannyjed

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Re: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2011, 09:05:10 AM »
Info on Sinamar, please.
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Offline hokerer

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Offline maxieboy

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Re: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2011, 10:12:40 AM »
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Offline dannyjed

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Re: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2011, 11:40:25 AM »
Thanks Joe and Maxieboy
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Offline narcout

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Re: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2011, 02:03:31 PM »
I think I might try this the next time a make a India Black Ale.  The last time I made one the roasty, bitter flavor was clashing with the citrusy hops. I was thinking of changing the hops, but I might just give this a try.

I brewed a black IPA last weekend and added the chocolate malt and carafa III during the (batch) sparge rather than the mash in an effort to cut down on harsh roasty flavors. 

It's too early to tell how much of an effect it had, but an added bonus was that it kept the sparge pH in line (even though I don't have an extreme water profile, I've found that the pH rises quite a bit during the batch sparge unless I take corrective action). 

Offline denny

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Re: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2011, 02:11:20 PM »
(even though I don't have an extreme water profile, I've found that the pH rises quite a bit during the batch sparge unless I take corrective action). 

Wow, that's weird.  I wonder what the cause of that is?
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Offline narcout

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Re: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2011, 05:13:58 PM »
(even though I don't have an extreme water profile, I've found that the pH rises quite a bit during the batch sparge unless I take corrective action). 

Wow, that's weird.  I wonder what the cause of that is?

If I had to guess, I'd say some combination of slightly alkaline sparge water and the grains having possibly used up most or all of their buffering power during the mash.  I know this is somewhat contrary to other people's experience, but I've measured an upward pH shift during a batch sparge of 0.4. 

Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Unfermentable, da-dee-dee-da
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2011, 10:38:46 AM »
You don't use up buffering power.  They're salts in the mash water, and the water stuck to the grains has the same concentration as the free mash liquor.  Usually around 25% of the water stays behind in the grain (1/2 qt/lb when mashing with 2 qt/lb), and those buffers (primarily phosphate) proceed to buffer the sparge.  If you're seeing a jump in pH its because your sparge water has a significant amount of alkali.  Though I've never measured the pH of my sparge, so I don't know if this is common or exceptional.
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