Author Topic: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?  (Read 7065 times)

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2015, 04:37:31 PM »
This is the kind of thing you need to test and decide for yourself.  No one else can tell what your tastes are.

This ^
Jon H.

Offline brewday

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
  • Chicago
Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2015, 04:43:29 PM »
This is the kind of thing you need to test and decide for yourself.  No one else can tell what your tastes are.

This ^

+2
Jon Weaver

Offline tommymorris

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2316
  • Tommy M.
Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2015, 05:02:10 PM »
Where is the Brülosopher when we need him?

This is the kind of thing you need to test and decide for yourself.  No one else can tell what your tastes are.
I was thinking an exbeeriment where roasted malts for a dark beer are added for the whole mash versus just at vorlauf.  It would be interesting to see if a sample of tasters could tell the difference between the two beers.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 05:03:46 PM by alestateyall »

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2015, 05:14:22 PM »
Where is the Brülosopher when we need him?

This is the kind of thing you need to test and decide for yourself.  No one else can tell what your tastes are.
I was thinking an exbeeriment where roasted malts for a dark beer are added for the whole mash versus just at vorlauf.  It would be interesting to see if a sample of tasters could tell the difference between the two beers.


I think they'd definitely be able to tell a difference either way, but pH would be huge in which ones were preferred. If they were both mashed @ 5.4, the 'add at sparge beer' might be preferred. If the 'all mashed together' beer were mashed @ 5.6, the results might well be different. It'd be interesting to see.
Jon H.

Offline tommymorris

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2316
  • Tommy M.
Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2015, 05:15:55 PM »
I mash all my grains together for the whole mash. I find this thread  thought provoking though.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20909
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2015, 05:55:17 PM »
Where is the Brülosopher when we need him?

This is the kind of thing you need to test and decide for yourself.  No one else can tell what your tastes are.
I was thinking an exbeeriment where roasted malts for a dark beer are added for the whole mash versus just at vorlauf.  It would be interesting to see if a sample of tasters could tell the difference between the two beers.

If they couldn't, I'd worry....
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline chumley

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1001
Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2015, 06:47:40 PM »
Where is the Brülosopher when we need him?

This is the kind of thing you need to test and decide for yourself.  No one else can tell what your tastes are.

That's pretty much what I think regarding the other thread about hiring professional judges to tell you how to tweak your recipes. ;)

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2008
  • A twerp from Antwerp
Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2015, 07:35:11 PM »
Where is the Brülosopher when we need him?

This is the kind of thing you need to test and decide for yourself.  No one else can tell what your tastes are.
I was thinking an exbeeriment where roasted malts for a dark beer are added for the whole mash versus just at vorlauf.  It would be interesting to see if a sample of tasters could tell the difference between the two beers.

If they couldn't, I'd worry....

Three of us in Belgium brewed the same base beer for a Supplication clone. A double-ish ale with 5% Carafa Special III. I was the only one who added that Gordonesquely in Vorlauf. The difference was very clear: mine was not only lighter in color but also less roasty. Not better or worse, just different. I would probably not do it for a heavy stout, but for this beer I liked it.

BTW, 2 of us brewed the beer with Wyeast #3787, the 3rd one used yeast he had gone to fetch at the Westmalle brewery itself. The difference was spectacular....
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6229
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2015, 08:22:09 PM »
Three of us in Belgium brewed the same base beer for a Supplication clone. A double-ish ale with 5% Carafa Special III. I was the only one who added that Gordonesquely in Vorlauf. The difference was very clear: mine was not only lighter in color but also less roasty. Not better or worse, just different. I would probably not do it for a heavy stout, but for this beer I liked it.
This is what I was getting at when I mentioned lower extraction. If the other brewers used a lower amount of Carafa and mashed it to end up at the same color as your beer with the grains added at vorlauf, would the flavor difference still be there? I'm leaning stongly towards "no" on this.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2008
  • A twerp from Antwerp
Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2015, 08:45:55 PM »
This is what I was getting at when I mentioned lower extraction. If the other brewers used a lower amount of Carafa and mashed it to end up at the same color as your beer with the grains added at vorlauf, would the flavor difference still be there? I'm leaning stongly towards "no" on this.
I agree, the difference was not outspoken. The biggest differences were the fresh Westmalle yeast vs the Wyeast, and the fact that my beer was a bit sweeter.
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline brewday

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
  • Chicago
Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2015, 10:14:33 PM »
Three of us in Belgium brewed the same base beer for a Supplication clone. A double-ish ale with 5% Carafa Special III. I was the only one who added that Gordonesquely in Vorlauf. The difference was very clear: mine was not only lighter in color but also less roasty. Not better or worse, just different. I would probably not do it for a heavy stout, but for this beer I liked it.
This is what I was getting at when I mentioned lower extraction. If the other brewers used a lower amount of Carafa and mashed it to end up at the same color as your beer with the grains added at vorlauf, would the flavor difference still be there? I'm leaning stongly towards "no" on this.

The fact that the color was off leads me to believe there's a difference in the process we're talking about.  The color should be the same.  These grains don't really need conversion, so it's just a matter of contact time, right?

When I add the dark grains (crushed of course) I give them a good stir and allow them to steep for a bit.  Fifteen minutes or so of contact time seems to work fine.  I do this for both batch sparge and no-sparge.

For those who brew or have brewed extract batches, how is this any different?  It's an honest question as I've only brewed all-grain.  When I look at NB Stout and Porter extract w/specialty kits, they all have the same instruction - allow dark grains to steep for 20 minutes or until temp reaches 170°, then discard.

The equivalent all-grain recipes all include exactly the same amount of roasted grains.  Are the extract beers supposed to come out lighter in color and flavor?
Jon Weaver

S. cerevisiae

  • Guest
Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2015, 11:02:30 PM »
I fly sparge

I knew that there was a reason why I liked you, Paul.  Great minds continuous sparge. :)

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2015, 12:06:34 AM »
When I heard Strong talk about this on whatever poscast, I remember him pointing out that when you brew with extract you don't put specialty grains in the mash, you steep them. Ergo, steeping is better because extract brewers do it, I guess. I listened to the whole interview but never really bought in to the theory.

I mash everything. One simple water calculation. If I dont want acrid I dont use it. Simple as that.

Offline PrettyBeard

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • A short sturdy creature fond of drink and industry
Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2015, 03:11:59 AM »
Three of us in Belgium brewed the same base beer for a Supplication clone. A double-ish ale with 5% Carafa Special III. I was the only one who added that Gordonesquely in Vorlauf. The difference was very clear: mine was not only lighter in color but also less roasty. Not better or worse, just different. I would probably not do it for a heavy stout, but for this beer I liked it.
This is what I was getting at when I mentioned lower extraction. If the other brewers used a lower amount of Carafa and mashed it to end up at the same color as your beer with the grains added at vorlauf, would the flavor difference still be there? I'm leaning stongly towards "no" on this.

The fact that the color was off leads me to believe there's a difference in the process we're talking about.  The color should be the same.  These grains don't really need conversion, so it's just a matter of contact time, right?

When I add the dark grains (crushed of course) I give them a good stir and allow them to steep for a bit.  Fifteen minutes or so of contact time seems to work fine.  I do this for both batch sparge and no-sparge.

For those who brew or have brewed extract batches, how is this any different?  It's an honest question as I've only brewed all-grain.  When I look at NB Stout and Porter extract w/specialty kits, they all have the same instruction - allow dark grains to steep for 20 minutes or until temp reaches 170°, then discard.

The equivalent all-grain recipes all include exactly the same amount of roasted grains.  Are the extract beers supposed to come out lighter in color and flavor?

What I've done, in the past, is add specialty grains to my cold water.  Steep them for the whole heating cycle, and remove when I get up to ~170.  I'm probably weird, but Grandma said add to cold water when you want to extract flavors.  I even got an 85% extraction on 3.5# of Oak Smoked Wheat when I added it to a dunkelweizen kit with this method.