Author Topic: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?  (Read 6367 times)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2015, 03:24:44 PM »
I'm in the minority - I mash it all together and account for it in software. Zero acrid bite.

I should clarify.  I only do the add at sparge method for beers where I want more subtle roast - schwarzbier comes to mind (maybe since I just made one and the chocolate/roast is on point from the samples I've stolen from the keg).  Stouts, I put in the whole time and adjust my pH.

As I think about it, I do throw in the Midnight Wheat @ sparge for Black IPA, since it's mostly for color. I mash the rest, though.
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Offline PORTERHAUS

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2015, 05:11:19 PM »

When brewers say they have tried this late mash addition, how late we talking...10-15 mins left in the boil?

assuming you meant mash, not boil.

I fly sparge, and add right before I turn on my pump to add sparge water into the MT.

I did mean mash thank you. I just noticed that.

Offline PORTERHAUS

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2015, 05:15:21 PM »
Ill also note I havent had any issues with doing a regular mash with the dark grains. I was mostly wondering if I was missing out on something or if it was trully worth it. I can see this being more beneficial for a drak Lager or something with a lot of roast malt. In this case I think ill just aim for a slightly higher mash ph for that smoothness and at most maybe add the Black Malt with 15 min left in the mash. You know how it is...always something to try.

I appreciate the replies.

Offline jeffy

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2015, 06:04:39 PM »
It's mostly a method to keep your water adjustments the same.  If you dial in your salts with light grains and add the crystal and dark malts after conversion you can mash the same way with whatever recipe you have.  It allows you to keep the same basic mash each time.  Not such a big deal if you use a water profile program.
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Offline denny

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2015, 10:01:37 PM »
I'm in the minority - I mash it all together and account for it in software. Zero acrid bite.
[/quote

Yep, same here.  Adding dark malts at vorlauf decreases or changes the flavor impact you get from them.  If that's what you want, fine.  Usually it's not what I want.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2015, 11:31:22 PM »


I'm in the minority - I mash it all together and account for it in software. Zero acrid bite.
[/quote

Yep, same here.  Adding dark malts at vorlauf decreases or changes the flavor impact you get from them.  If that's what you want, fine.  Usually it's not what I want.

I do the same as well. My thought is that you are probably just extracting less by adding them at vorlauf. If you were to add more dark grain to make up the difference in color, you'd probably be back to a similar flavor contribution as well. I just mash it all together and adjust the quantity of roasted grain in the recipe if needed.

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Offline brewday

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2015, 12:14:13 AM »
I use the same amounts of roasted/crystal grains I'd use if mashing, but I don't perceive a decrease or change in the actual flavor itself.  I mainly add them at vorlauf for the reasons that Jeffy mentioned.

I do like the beers better, however.  Whether it's "smoothness" or a consistent mash pH, I can't say.  But I've tried it both ways and found that I prefer the late additions.

YMMV, of course.
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Offline BrodyR

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2015, 03:17:41 AM »
I think one aspect of this that should be considered is the affect on the pH of the beer itself.

I recently did a late addition with an Irish Dry Stout. After mashing at a normal pH with Marris Otter/flaked barley (new computer... don't have my old beersmith notes but I think it was around 5.3 or so) the late addition of 500l Roasted Barley brought the pH down leaving the final beer at like 3.85 or something, which is right around Guinness.

That low pH is probably a component of that tang, so to speak, some find in Guinness (and I found in my homebrew). Adding a tiny bit of baking soda to the glass brought the pH back up and created a totally different beer. While that low pH is characteristic of a dry stout it seems a lot of folks like to mash their stouts higher. 

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2015, 03:55:35 AM »
I agree with Denny's point, but I prefer them to be more muted.  Admittedly, I don't do a ton of dark beers, but my dry stout turns out great with the late add process.  Again, it is about getting out of the process the results you want.
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Offline tommymorris

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2015, 04:05:06 AM »
Where is the Brülosopher when we need him?

Offline neddles

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2015, 07:00:29 AM »
Ill say it for the second tome in this thread and maybe someone will listen.  If you are adding a bunch of dark/acidic malts late/vorlauf after mashing at a correct pH you will be dropping your kettle pH significantly. You would, in many cases need to adjust the pH a second time for the kettle. Just because the pH during conversion was ok that doesn't mean its going to be ok for you to screw with it after conversion. There will be an impact. #kettlepHmatters

Offline narvin

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2015, 12:58:46 PM »
Ill say it for the second tome in this thread and maybe someone will listen.  If you are adding a bunch of dark/acidic malts late/vorlauf after mashing at a correct pH you will be dropping your kettle pH significantly. You would, in many cases need to adjust the pH a second time for the kettle. Just because the pH during conversion was ok that doesn't mean its going to be ok for you to screw with it after conversion. There will be an impact. #kettlepHmatters

German brewers often lower kettle ph.  It can be beneficial to "screw with it".
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Offline neddles

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2015, 03:45:18 PM »
Ill say it for the second tome in this thread and maybe someone will listen.  If you are adding a bunch of dark/acidic malts late/vorlauf after mashing at a correct pH you will be dropping your kettle pH significantly. You would, in many cases need to adjust the pH a second time for the kettle. Just because the pH during conversion was ok that doesn't mean its going to be ok for you to screw with it after conversion. There will be an impact. #kettlepHmatters

German brewers often lower kettle ph.  It can be beneficial to "screw with it".
Apparently Im not doing a good job of making my point. Yes it "can" be beneficial but I doubt that "german brewers" blindly add acidic malts at vorlauf without consideration of what the effects are on pH, boil chemistry, and flavor. Which it seems people are doing in this thread. For example if you mash an Oatmeal Stout or worse, a RIS at 5.4 and then do a late addition of all the roasted malts and/or dark crystals hoping to get a smooth roast flavor, what do you think will happen? Just because conversion happened at 5.4 doesnt mean dropping the pH (with acidic malts at vorlauf) to 5.0 in the kettle is going to be a good idea. You will ideally want to adjust your kettle pH. Again, I bring this up because it seems the folks in this thread arent taking this into consideration.

Offline brewday

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2015, 04:33:26 PM »
Ill say it for the second tome in this thread and maybe someone will listen.  If you are adding a bunch of dark/acidic malts late/vorlauf after mashing at a correct pH you will be dropping your kettle pH significantly. You would, in many cases need to adjust the pH a second time for the kettle. Just because the pH during conversion was ok that doesn't mean its going to be ok for you to screw with it after conversion. There will be an impact. #kettlepHmatters

German brewers often lower kettle ph.  It can be beneficial to "screw with it".
Apparently Im not doing a good job of making my point. Yes it "can" be beneficial but I doubt that "german brewers" blindly add acidic malts at vorlauf without consideration of what the effects are on pH, boil chemistry, and flavor. Which it seems people are doing in this thread. For example if you mash an Oatmeal Stout or worse, a RIS at 5.4 and then do a late addition of all the roasted malts and/or dark crystals hoping to get a smooth roast flavor, what do you think will happen? Just because conversion happened at 5.4 doesnt mean dropping the pH (with acidic malts at vorlauf) to 5.0 in the kettle is going to be a good idea. You will ideally want to adjust your kettle pH. Again, I bring this up because it seems the folks in this thread arent taking this into consideration.

5.4 is your number, not mine.  I target a higher mash pH.
Jon Weaver

Offline denny

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Re: Adding Dark Malts at Vorlauf?
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2015, 04:35:15 PM »
Where is the Brülosopher when we need him?

This is the kind of thing you need to test and decide for yourself.  No one else can tell what your tastes are.
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