Author Topic: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!  (Read 7158 times)

Online Kaiser

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2010, 01:28:20 PM »
. And much darker than usual.

Oxidation does that. I once force oxidised and force aged a Helles to see what oxydation taste like and it was also much darker.

Kai

Offline blatz

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2010, 01:44:46 PM »
Don't know I will go all FWH on many beers.

I did about 6 batches with FWH just to make sure.
I would agree with you.
I do not think I will be FWH any beer.
I just got kind of harsh lingering bitterns that I did not enjoy.


amen to that!!  I gave it up 2 years ago and then recently tried it again to see if I still felt the same - yep, no thanks! 

I think its gained popularity b/c Denny enjoys it and its a key method in his beers.  I think its somewhat rare (from what I understand) on the pro scene.  The pros I talk to scrunched their faces at it for the "strange, lingering" (their words) bitterness it leaves. 


Blatz - What the hell, man, my wife can't lift a full carboy!!! To be honest, it isn't really that bad yet. Drink it quick and keep it cold. Won't be sending it out though. Plus, my wife probably won't bat an eye while she drinks it. I mostly brew kolsch for her...

well, you've got big guns and are a workout fiend, I figured your wife might be the equivalent of gillian michaels or something  ;)

seriously though, I woulda had fun with my wife and with a straight face, brought her in the garage and asked her to lift the carboys out - purely to see the Are you f-ing insane??? look on her face. 
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Online Kaiser

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2010, 02:01:57 PM »
I enjoyed the few beers I FWHed. It made a nice Pilsner with an authentic aroma and flavor profile. I did not notice a harsh bitterness but I'll pay more attention to that next time I use FWH.

Kai

Offline ndcube

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2010, 02:15:36 PM »
CO2 absorption by the beer is key. At 60 the beer can hold 1.0 volumes of CO2 at atmospheric pressure. At 32 its 1.6 vlumes. This is a difference of ~0.6 volumes. In the end 5 gal of beer had the ability to suck up 3 gallons of CO2. That’s way more than what your head space provides.

I don't usually leave any headspace but I guess that's immaterial.

Just because the beer can suck up .6 volumes of CO2, will that actually happen let alone bring O2 along with it?


Offline denny

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2010, 02:38:51 PM »
As far as the dry air lock there was an article how to make one in BYO a few years ago with McMasterCarr parts. I'll see if I can find it. Still, nothing beats stainless under pressure.



Back in the days when I used carboys, I just put a piece of foil tightly rubber banded around the opening.  I assume there wasn't much CO2 escaping at 32F, so that kind of thing should work for you if you need to do it in the future.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Online Kaiser

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2010, 03:06:24 PM »
Just because the beer can suck up .6 volumes of CO2, will that actually happen let alone bring O2 along with it?

Because it doesn't have a supply of 3 gal the following will happen. As the CO2 is consumed by the beer its replaced by air. That air dilutes the CO2 and the CO2 partial pressure falls. Less CO2 partial pressure less ability for the beer to hold CO2. At some point there will be an eqilibrium where the beer has all the CO2 it can hold while the head space has just enough CO2 to create a CO2 pressure that matches what the beer needs to hold its CO2. One can write this equation and solve it but I don't think that this is necessary.

Kai

Offline majorvices

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2010, 03:24:38 PM »

I don't usually leave any headspace but I guess that's immaterial.

Just because the beer can suck up .6 volumes of CO2, will that actually happen let alone bring O2 along with it?



How do you "not leave any head space" in the primary???  :-\
Keith Y.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2010, 03:26:27 PM »

seriously though, I woulda had fun with my wife and with a straight face, brought her in the garage and asked her to lift the carboys out - purely to see the Are you f-ing insane??? look on her face.  

Come to think of it you kinda got that response from me.  ;)
Keith Y.
Self appointed "All Grain" section pruner

Offline ndcube

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2010, 04:20:58 PM »

I don't usually leave any headspace but I guess that's immaterial.

Just because the beer can suck up .6 volumes of CO2, will that actually happen let alone bring O2 along with it?



How do you "not leave any head space" in the primary???  :-\

Sorry for the confustio. I'm talking about secondaries.

Offline babalu87

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2010, 08:57:11 PM »
I enjoyed the few beers I FWHed. It made a nice Pilsner with an authentic aroma and flavor profile. I did not notice a harsh bitterness but I'll pay more attention to that next time I use FWH.

Kai

If that was one of the Pilsners you gave me last Spring your statement is seconded

A truly GREAT beer
Jeff

On draught:
IIPA, Stout, Hefeweizen, Hallertau Pale Ale, Bitter

Primary:
Hefeweizen,Berliner Weisse, Mead

Online Kaiser

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2010, 04:35:11 PM »

If that was one of the Pilsners you gave me last Spring your statement is seconded

quite possible. I was going back and forth between FWH and traditional hopping.

Kai

Offline babalu87

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2010, 06:36:01 PM »

If that was one of the Pilsners you gave me last Spring your statement is seconded

quite possible. I was going back and forth between FWH and traditional hopping.

Kai

It was Pils #74 Kai.
I liked it a little better than #78 Pils

I sent you an e-mail this AM @ brau kaiser
Jeff

On draught:
IIPA, Stout, Hefeweizen, Hallertau Pale Ale, Bitter

Primary:
Hefeweizen,Berliner Weisse, Mead

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2010, 12:12:29 PM »
It was Pils #74 Kai.
I liked it a little better than #78 Pils

74 was FWHed while 78 has a more classical Pilsner hopping. But both were brewed a few weeks apart. When I checked my notes I didn't mention anything about harsh bitterness for any of them.

I guess your mileage does very and there are likely other factors that may play a role. I like FWH b/c I don't have to worry about additional hop additions later and can leave the boil alone for most of the time.

Kai

Offline tom

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2010, 05:05:09 PM »
Assuming I did the math / science right...  and it's been a while so I could be wrong.

If your secondary carboy is filled with 4.75 gal of beer and .25 gal of CO2 then you will lose 10.35 teaspoons of CO2 volume in the headspace and 3 teaspoons of beer volume (neglecting alcohol content and assuming a drop from 60F to 32F).

This is just over a quarter of a cup.  Is that enough air going in to oxidize the beer (assuming your airlock doesn't dry out completely as major's did).

What else am I missing in my logic?  More gas is dissovled at lower temps?  Do you take the whole carboy volume into consideration for CO2 and not just the headspace?
Once the airlock is dry, air will diffuse into the carboy forever.
Brew on

Offline seajellie

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2010, 09:13:41 PM »
Kai, what hops did you use for FWH in that pilsner that turned out so well?

Me thinks this is like dry hopping, it works better with some hop varieties than others. And as you said, there are likely a number of factors in play. I'd suggest looking at water chemistry, hummulene/myrcene/etc. content of the hops, and of course malts used (for balance). The three times I used FWH and it turned out nice, was with 2% spalt. Four times I did FWH and the results were not good at all; the hops were hersbrucker and tettnang in those cases, at 4.5+%. It would be nice to know more about this as when it works, it's great. At this point however, I'll probably only try it with low aa% because I don't like that lingering bitterness and it's not worth risking a beer.

This subject is probably worthy of a phd!