Author Topic: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!  (Read 8856 times)

Offline blatz

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2010, 07:23:22 AM »
very good point seajellie - your examples are similar to the experience I've had with FWH - with Spalt, its been nice, but in the pilsner I made recently (mentioned a few posts back in this thread) it was actually Hallertau and Tettnang as the FWH, which isn't terrible, but I don't really like it and prefer the traditional kettle additions.

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Offline Kaiser

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2010, 07:36:22 AM »
The beers that I sent to Jeff were all hopped with Hallertau Tradition. I first noticed that FWHing gives an authentic Pilsner hop flavor and profile when I brewed a Helles and used FWH. My think was that if it doesn't work I'll get a Helles and when it works I'll have a Pilsner. Here is a blog entry on this : Helles That Became A Pilsner.

I figure that, with most brewing techniques, you can neither discredit it or claim that it is the best and only way to brew. We have little understanding what actually happens during FWH although there are some compelling theories out there. The only thing we know is that it can work.

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Offline denny

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2010, 09:16:15 AM »
Hmmmmm.....I've FWh with over a dozen different varieties of hops and so far I haven't found one I didn't like!
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Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2010, 10:42:49 AM »
I FWH with Saaz and Hallertau.
I did not like both of them even thou Hallertau was not as pronounced.
I based my FWH on Brewing Techniques "The History and Brewing Methods of Pilsner Urquell"
http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue5.3/urquell.html

Quote
The hops are grown in the nearby Zatec region of Bohemia. Hops are initially added into the sweet wort before it reaches a boil (first wort hopping); more hops are added about 80 minutes before the end of the boil, and the final addition is added about 25 minutes before the end of the boil. (Pilsner Urquell is not dry-hopped.) Alpha-acid levels in the Saaz hops during the past five years have averaged about 3.8%

I also think that 80 min boil gives it vegetile notes.
I have to say I got very close hop aroma.
I wonder if they do not "age" the hops to use these techniques.
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Offline uthristy

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2010, 01:58:45 PM »
on another HB forum>
 I  was told that " (Palmer, or Chris Colby of BYO) said that in order to truly provide enough O2 to oxydize our beers it would take pumping and entire one of our red oxygen bottle/airstones into our beer AFTER fermentation is complete." ::)

and that I'm obsessing because of wanting to purge my carboys & `burp the kegs with CO2.



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Offline Kaiser

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2010, 02:03:45 PM »
on another HB forum>
 I  was told that " (Palmer, or Chris Colby of BYO) said that in order to truly provide enough O2 to oxydize our beers it would take pumping and entire one of our red oxygen bottle/airstones into our beer AFTER fermentation is complete." ::)

That must have been taken out of context or the originator of this statement has a different idea of what oxidation is. I have purposefully oxidized beer and didn’t need a full O2 tank.

Kai

Offline dean

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2010, 02:07:14 PM »
Assuming I did the math / science right...  and it's been a while so I could be wrong.

If your secondary carboy is filled with 4.75 gal of beer and .25 gal of CO2 then you will lose 10.35 teaspoons of CO2 volume in the headspace and 3 teaspoons of beer volume (neglecting alcohol content and assuming a drop from 60F to 32F).

This is just over a quarter of a cup.  Is that enough air going in to oxidize the beer (assuming your airlock doesn't dry out completely as major's did).

What else am I missing in my logic?  More gas is dissovled at lower temps?  Do you take the whole carboy volume into consideration for CO2 and not just the headspace?

I don't get it either... regardless, the CO2 is heavier (creating a blanket) than the small amount of air that could possibly have entered the carboy so the beer should never have been oxidized in the first place.   ???

Offline majorvices

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2010, 02:12:52 PM »
Assuming I did the math / science right...  and it's been a while so I could be wrong.

If your secondary carboy is filled with 4.75 gal of beer and .25 gal of CO2 then you will lose 10.35 teaspoons of CO2 volume in the headspace and 3 teaspoons of beer volume (neglecting alcohol content and assuming a drop from 60F to 32F).

This is just over a quarter of a cup.  Is that enough air going in to oxidize the beer (assuming your airlock doesn't dry out completely as major's did).

What else am I missing in my logic?  More gas is dissovled at lower temps?  Do you take the whole carboy volume into consideration for CO2 and not just the headspace?

I don't get it either... regardless, the CO2 is heavier (creating a blanket) than the small amount of air that could possibly have entered the carboy so the beer should never have been oxidized in the first place.   ???

That's a myth. Co2 and o2 mix. There is not a co2 blanket once the beer stops producing co2 if there is a way for 02 to get in. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to breath on the earth since co2 would blanket the entire surface right about head level.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 02:14:29 PM by majorvices »
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Offline dean

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2010, 02:21:29 PM »
Oh I'm sure it mixes but at such a small quantity its hardly traceable without very sophisticated equipment.  Just fess up major, you splashed it didn't ya?   :D

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2010, 03:21:37 PM »
They'll mix, but CO2 is still heavier and should do a good job of protecting your beer.

Offline ndcube

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2010, 04:01:57 PM »
I know once I take the lid off of a fermenting bucket and do a flame test the flame goes out.  Shortly after the flame stays lit.

I would imagine any amount of O2 that isn't absorbed by sulfur compounds oxidizes beer but it's a matter of what is detectable.

One of my first batches I tried a barleywine.  The yeast got stuck (or so I thought) so I gave it a blast of pure O2 for 60 seconds.  Definetely enough to oxidize.  I won't forget that taste.

Offline ndcube

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2010, 04:55:41 AM »
Also, Seems like there is already a bunch of CO2 dissolved in brews after fermentation.  I just degassed a wine and it took several minutes of whipping it until I could hold a flame over the neck of the carboy.

...I'm not about to degas a beer so don't ask.

I'll have to watch my airlock more closely the next time I cold condition.  I don't recall any negative pressure during the crash with zero headspace but I wasn't paying attention.  It's my guess that the negative pressure comes with headspace.

Offline majorvices

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2010, 06:00:27 AM »
Guys, the beer was in the chest freezer for probably 2-4 weeks without water in the airlock. The beer was completely flat when I tranferred it - no dissolved Co2. I don't know what else I can say. If beer is that stable that it can go weeks with no protection from the outside air then there is simply no reason to use airlocks at all!

Sure, a few days, I am positive it wouold be no problem. I have had kegs that were not carbbed lose pressure and I never had an issue. But, for heaven's sake I have been brewing this recipe (or a close proximity thereof) for 15 years or so and I think I can taste oxidation when I run across it. Lordy mercy - you guys need to leave your beer in the primary for an extra 4 weeks (probably 6 total) without an airlock it you feel so damn confindent it is not an issue.  ::)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 06:03:50 AM by majorvices »
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Offline ndcube

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2010, 06:25:10 AM »
I wasn't saying you didn't have an airlock issue major.  I trust you know how your recipe is supposed to taste.

I have just never crashed cooled beers before December and want to figure out for myself whether or not a secondary carboy with a full airlock and no headspace will suck in air and oxidize the beer.

Sorry if this was off topic.

Offline majorvices

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Re: Carboy Oxidation - sure doesn't take long!
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2010, 07:21:35 AM »
No worries, re-reading, that post came off sounding grumpier than my intention. First cup of coffee and all.  ;) I'm all for a thread evolving in any direction as long as it is helpful.
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