[bluesman]

So it is a method of making glucose.  How does this affect the flavor and fermentability?

Well, according to the "Brewing a Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma" by Michael Eder in the May/June 2010 Zymurgy, "The greater the difference between the glucose and maltose in the wort, the more ethyl- and isoamyl acetate will be produced by the yeast".  Basically, it's accentuating the banana in favor of the clove.

I want to get the 4-vinyl guiacol or clove like phenol. An acid rest at 111F helps to produce ferulic acid which helps promote 4VG upon fermentation.

F. Nitzsche

Investigations into Optimizing Wheat Beer QualityBrauwelt, Vol32, 8 Aug 1991
•The taste and smell threshold is 0.8 mg of 4VG/L
•4VG levels over 2 mg/L bring a strong/severe character to the beer
•The fact that the levels of ferulicacid can fluctuate widely in malt can effect the levels of 4VG in beer
•As a rule, wheat malt has less ferulicthan barley malt
•The highest levels of 4VG occur after the final limit of attenuation is reached
•More 4VG is present when the final limit of attenuation is reached in 4 days as opposed to 2 days
•The levels of 4VG don’t decrease significantly with the age of the beer, although other staling by-products may cover up the taste of 4VG
Here's an intersting paper on German Wheat Beers.

Pitching rate and ferm temp are critical for producing that classic German profile in this beer:

Dr. Narziss
16thTechnological Seminar at Weihenstephan1983
Fermentation
•Pitching Rate 12-18 million cells/ml
•Starting Temperature 12-15 C (lower starting temps more common when starting tank is used to settle cold truband then transfer to fermenterbefore start of fermentation where free rise occurs)
•Max temperature 18-22 C
•Main fermentation is 2-4 days
•Maximum Cell count is 60-80 millionBottle Conditioning
•Lager yeast is less likely to autolyzeand settles better
•If top-fermenting yeast is used, shelf life should be limited to 4-6 weeksFermenterShape
•Cylindrical tanks produce only 2/3 the esters of shallow open fermenters
•Horizontal tanks perform like open fermenters

http://www.mbaa.com/Districts/MidSouth/presentations/Wheat_Beer_Yeast__Fermentation2.pdf

[Hokerer]

Well, according to the "Brewing a Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma" by Michael Eder in the May/June 2010 Zymurgy, "The greater the difference between the glucose and maltose in the wort, the more ethyl- and isoamyl acetate will be produced by the yeast".  Basically, it's accentuating the banana in favor of the clove.

I want to get the 4-vinyl guiacol or clove like phenol. An acid rest at 111F helps to produce ferulic acid which helps promote 4VG upon fermentation.

That's where we differ.  I know it has to be there, but I don't particularly care for the clove - or at least, too much clove.  I prefer the banana to be more prominent although I'm not looking for a banana bomb either.

[Pawtucket Patriot]

On my brewing agenda (at some point) is to do the 4-VG rest with 3068. I'd like to compare it with not doing the 4-VG rest and using Hefeweizen IV (of course, the beers would be brewed identically in every other respect). 

And eventually, I would love to compare decocted and non-decocted. At first, I'd like to compare identical grain bills. Then, if I detect a difference, I would like to try to approximate the nature of the difference with specialty malts.

[James Lorden]

Ron, Last year I took first place with a hefe at the Turkey Shoot we judged.  I made two carboys, one with WLP 300 and the other with the WLP 380.  The 300 kicked out lots of banana and the 380 had lots of clove.  I blended them together till I got a nice balance.

This year I'm thinking of pitching both yeast into the same fermentation and see if I get similar results.

[tomsawyer]

Ron, Last year I took first place with a hefe at the Turkey Shoot we judged.  I made two carboys, one with WLP 300 and the other with the WLP 380.  The 300 kicked out lots of banana and the 380 had lots of clove.  I blended them together till I got a nice balance.

This year I'm thinking of pitching both yeast into the same fermentation and see if I get similar results.

I blended these two before, but I've found its simpler to just use 300 and a lower ferm temp to keep the level of banana at a reasonable level.

[bluesman]

Ron, Last year I took first place with a hefe at the Turkey Shoot we judged.  I made two carboys, one with WLP 300 and the other with the WLP 380.  The 300 kicked out lots of banana and the 380 had lots of clove.  I blended them together till I got a nice balance.

This year I'm thinking of pitching both yeast into the same fermentation and see if I get similar results.

Interesting idea. Let us know how it turns out. Hopefully I'll see you again at the Turkey Shoot in November.

[bluesman]

Ron, Last year I took first place with a hefe at the Turkey Shoot we judged.  I made two carboys, one with WLP 300 and the other with the WLP 380.  The 300 kicked out lots of banana and the 380 had lots of clove.  I blended them together till I got a nice balance.

This year I'm thinking of pitching both yeast into the same fermentation and see if I get similar results.

I blended these two before, but I've found its simpler to just use 300 and a lower ferm temp to keep the level of banana at a reasonable level.

I have WLP 300 and I'm planning for a pitch at 62F. I'm not certain about a starter size yet.

[nateo]

Instead of doing a reverse mash to get a glucose-rich wort, why not just mash a little bit hotter, and add some amount of dextrose? Would you get the same increased esters that way?

[Hokerer]

Instead of doing a reverse mash to get a glucose-rich wort, why not just mash a little bit hotter, and add some amount of dextrose? Would you get the same increased esters that way?

Yeah, but that would be cheating and not nearly as much fun.  Got 33 minutes left on the boil at the moment.  The reverse step mash went pretty well.

[Hokerer]

Okay, went ahead and posted the recipe, including my whack-a-doo mash schedule to the wiki...

http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/KlotzFerryHefeweizen

...the bubbling is subsiding after a major blowoff.  We'll see how it turns out in a couple weeks.

[bluesman]

Okay, went ahead and posted the recipe, including my whack-a-doo mash schedule to the wiki...

http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/KlotzFerryHefeweizen

...the bubbling is subsiding after a major blowoff.  We'll see how it turns out in a couple weeks.

Nice work Joe!

Did you make a starter for this recipe?

Let us know how it turned out. I'll post my recipe details on Sunday when I brew mine.

[Hokerer]

Did you make a starter for this recipe?

Yep, grew up 3068 from a slant...  10ml + 4oz + 16oz + 32oz  so ended up with about 1.5 liter total.  Chill, decant, add a little fresh wort, pitch

[bluesman]

Brewed my Hefe last weekend. Just getting around to posting my recipe. I decided to go with a single infusion at 153F due to time constraints. It's in the primary and about finished. I'll rack it into a keg next weekend. I fermented it at 62F. The aroma from the fermentation chamber is mostly banana with some clove.
 
Weizen/Weissbier
Type: All Grain Date: 9/25/2011
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 8.25 gal
Boil Time: 90 min 
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage

Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5 lbs 4.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 6 48.8 %
5 lbs 4.0 oz Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 7 48.8 %
1.00 oz Hallertauer [3.90 %] - Boil 60.0 min 12.1 IBUs
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days)
1.0 pkg Hefeweizen Ale (White Labs #WLP300)
4.0 oz Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 5 2.3 %
0.40 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins)
4.00 g Chalk (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
1.00 g Baking Soda (Mash 60.0 mins)
 
Beer Profile
 
Measured Original Gravity: 1.048 SG
Bitterness: 12.1 IBUs
Est Color: 3.3 SRM
 
Mash Profile
 
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 10 lbs 12.0 oz
Sparge Water: 1.70 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: Mash PH: 5.42
 
 

 

[tomsawyer]

Seems like a lot of chalk/bicarb for a light colored brew.

[bluesman]

Seems like a lot of chalk/bicarb for a light colored brew.

I use distilled water