Author Topic: Acid Malt in a Saison  (Read 6193 times)

Offline pinnah

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1276
  • Wesloper, CO
    • View Profile
Acid Malt in a Saison
« on: September 27, 2011, 07:02:42 AM »
I have never used this malt. 
For those of you with experience, how much typically would you use?

Thanks.

Offline johnf

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 07:26:15 AM »
I have never used this malt. 
For those of you with experience, how much typically would you use?

Thanks.

What is your aim? To set the mash pH, the rule of thumb is 1% of the grist for every 0.1 reduction in pH required.

To make the beer tart or to taste lactic? I wouldn't do that with acid malt, but probably 10% or more and after the mash has converted as it will drop the mash pH far lower than optimal.

Offline pinnah

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1276
  • Wesloper, CO
    • View Profile
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 07:30:22 AM »
Thanks John,

I am planning a lemony sorachi saison, and was looking for a bit of tart. 

Offline narvin

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1376
  • Baltimore
    • View Profile
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 07:31:20 AM »
I would be also be wary of acidifying the wort too much post mash, at least with the Dupont strain of yeast (WL565).  It's a finicky yeast, and some have speculated that low pH is one of the inhibiting factors that make it stall out.  

It would be interesting to do a side by side comparison with and without the acid malt.  
Please do not reply if your an evil alien!
Thanks
Chris S.

Offline kylekohlmorgen

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1342
  • Saint Louis, MO
    • View Profile
    • The South House Pilot Brewery
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 07:56:28 AM »
I don’t like acid malt because its basically just like adding lactic acid to the beer. The results give a medicinal flavor that, I believe, isn’t worth the shortcut.

I loved the “Sour Starter” method given in a Zymurgy article from the March/April 2011 issue. Its an easier, more controllable way to get a little tartness (as opposed to lactic fermentation).

Here’s a small post with a little discussion on the method:

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=8204.0
Twitter/Instagram: @southhousebrew

Recipes, Brett/Bacteria Experiments: http://SouthHouseBeer.com/

Offline mabrungard

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1394
    • View Profile
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 09:34:49 AM »
Don't use acid or acid malt unless your brewing water has moderate to high alkalinity and there is an indication that the mash pH will not drop into the desirable 5.3 to 5.5 range without it.  If you brew with a very low alkalinity water such as distilled or RO water, you may not need it at all.  

Blind additions of acid malt, acid, or minerals without knowing or understanding what your brewing water needs is foolish.  I've seen far too many recipes that tell you to add tablespoon of this or that.  It might have been perfectly OK for the original brewer.  But unless your water is similar, it could be just as easily the wrong thing to do.  There really is a reason that brewers should know what their water is and what they should be doing to adjust it for their brew.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-Water/464551136933908

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 7877
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
    • View Profile
    • Yellowhammer Brewing Company
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 09:51:39 AM »
Agree with the above. If you are using acid malt or lactic to control your pH that's one thing, just adding it for "tartness" is not necessarily such a good idea.

FWIW I like the method of using a sour mash to add some "twang" to the beer and to adjust mash pH on lighter colored beers. I have even used spent mash from a previous brewday to do the same thing. But be sure to monitor pH, any type of acid addition - even sour mash - can lower your pH below the 5.4 level if you are not careful.
Keith Y.

Vote Jonathan Fuller for Governing Committee!

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6041
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 11:11:26 AM »
The has been good information given above.

This is from Weyermann's, which makes the acid malt.  See around pages 20-26.  They don't say what was used for the water in the tests.

http://www.weyermann.de/downloads/pdf/Weyermann_TKW_Mash-pH_2010.pdf
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline mabrungard

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1394
    • View Profile
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 01:56:28 PM »
I'm not a fan of the 0.1 unit drop per 1% acid malt rule.  As Jeff alludes to, the water will have a large influence in how the pH responds.  After looking at that slide presentation that Jeff pointed to, I would say that the laboratory trial that they ran was probably using a Pils malt with a relatively low alkalinity water (maybe distilled water).  

That response would be quite different if there had been much alkalinity in the water.  In addition, I don't think anyone would assume that there is a fixed relationship between pH and adding fixed quantities of an acid.  Those of you that have played with acids and monitored pH know that the pH doesn't move much initially.  This is the phase in which the alkalinity is being consumed by the acid.  But as more acid is added and alkalinity is used up, the pH drops like a rock.  

Acid malt is pretty much the same as adding liquid acid...its just attached to the grain.  Be careful!
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-Water/464551136933908

Offline skyler

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 650
    • View Profile
    • Brewing After Law School
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2011, 07:58:25 AM »
Acid malt is a useful tool in adjusting pH - it is NOT a flavorful "character malt" to be added for its flavor contribution to beer.

Offline pinnah

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1276
  • Wesloper, CO
    • View Profile
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2011, 08:47:17 AM »
Thanks for all the advise and it is really consistent.  Will heed. :)




Acid malt is a useful tool in adjusting pH - it is NOT a flavorful "character malt" to be added for its flavor contribution to beer.

Do you mean that it cannot be used for a flavor contribution or that a person really should not use for a flavor contribution?


Just wondering bc I though I had read of flavor contributions described like tangy, sour, tart....zippy with the use of a little acid malt.  Another homebrew myth perhaps?

Offline Delo

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2011, 09:16:04 AM »
Acid malt is sometimes used for a Gose instead of adding lactobacillus or lactid acid to produce the sour/tart taste you may be looking for. Only add the acid malt after conversion has taken place so not to change the pH.   A "Brew your own" magazine had a Gose recipe last month that used acid malt. My friend brewed it with good results(he said).  I am new to this forum so I dont know what can be posted as far as links, products, etc.
Mark

Offline richardt

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2011, 10:01:27 AM »
Actually, there are quite a few "letters to the editors" that got published in this month's BYO about the gose recipe.

It is always a good idea to check the subsequent issues for "corrections" and "comments from readers" about recipes from previous issues.  A significant percentage of recipes have errors or typos.

Offline Delo

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2011, 10:38:49 AM »
 Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #12 on: Today at 10:01:27 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, there are quite a few "letters to the editors" that got published in this month's BYO about the gose recipe.

It is always a good idea to check the subsequent issues for "corrections" and "comments from readers" about recipes from previous issues.  A significant percentage of recipes have errors or typos.


Now that you mention it I do remember that there was a letter about a problem with the extract recipe.  From previous comments I assumed the original post was about an all grain batch...you know what they say about assuming.  There was another letter that was a question about the recommended amount of acidulated malt in the all grain recipe, which was correct. I should have specified that my friend brewed the all grain.
Mark

Offline dhacker

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 684
    • View Profile
Re: Acid Malt in a Saison
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2011, 06:17:54 PM »
I guess I will be in the minority here and cloud the issue. If you are aware of your water profile and the ramifications of mash pH, then I think you definitely can get a flavor contribution from acid malt. I did just what you are proposing and made a Sorachi Ace hop Saison that turned out great! I thought about doing a sour mash and even sought advice on another forum, but the advice was to use the acid malt instead, and I must say I'm pleased with the results . .  I used 1.5% sauer malt in my recipe and there is a subtle tartness to the finished product that I feel would not have been there without the addition. 

2 cents.
Just brew it...