[blatz]

maybe a good beer to try some of these as late hop additions in small-ish amounts?

I don't think you quite get what we're saying  .  For late hops (flavor and aroma) the quantity is more important than the IBUs.  So whether it's Simcoe (14% AA) or Crystal (~4%AA) I'm going to use 4oz at 20 minutes - you need a high quantity of hops to put big hop flavor and aroma into the beer, regardless of what the alpha acids are.

You control the overall bitterness by using the early hops (60min) as your plug for the cumulative IBUs.  So in my simple example, the beer with Simcoe as the late hops, to get my targeted IBU for the beer, I may only need 1.5oz of Columbus as the 60min bittering charge, whereas with the Crystal hopped beer, I may need 3 or even 4oz to get the IBU target.

If you go 'smallish' late, your going to have 'smallish' flavor and aroma. 

[majorvices]

Its all subjective but when I brew an IPA I go with a base bitterness (as mentioned before, around 20 IBUs or so) and then hammer it home with the finishing and flavor/aroma hops. Zuess (which is aka Columbus) is a great dual purpose hop and I love it (see my IPA recipe in this thread somewhere). I have never even heard of apollo and haven;t tried citra yet but have heard good things about it.

[deepsouth]

maybe a good beer to try some of these as late hop additions in small-ish amounts?

I don't think you quite get what we're saying  .  For late hops (flavor and aroma) the quantity is more important than the IBUs.  So whether it's Simcoe (14% AA) or Crystal (~4%AA) I'm going to use 4oz at 20 minutes - you need a high quantity of hops to put big hop flavor and aroma into the beer, regardless of what the alpha acids are.

You control the overall bitterness by using the early hops (60min) as your plug for the cumulative IBUs.  So in my simple example, the beer with Simcoe as the late hops, to get my targeted IBU for the beer, I may only need 1.5oz of Columbus as the 60min bittering charge, whereas with the Crystal hopped beer, I may need 3 or even 4oz to get the IBU target.

If you go 'smallish' late, your going to have 'smallish' flavor and aroma. 

by smallish, i mean an ounce or two of each!  i may even go with a few hops at the 60 minute hop additions in much smaller amounts than that though. 

[nychomebrewer]

I think the current terminology for one of these is Cascadian Dark Ale or Cascade Dark Ale. Obviously you are going for the hoppiness of an IPA but with a dark color and I, personally, don't think they should have a roasty flavor. I do think they can have more malty backbone and mouthfeel then most IPAs. But what do I know.

I tried one by the Twenty First Amendment brewery that I still start to drool thinking about. I don't know what is so attractive other than the fact that I drank expecting a porter, and experienced everything I love about both styles. yum

NYCHomebrewer

[majorvices]

Obviously you are going for the hoppiness of an IPA but with a dark color and I, personally, don't think they should have a roasty flavor.

Not saying you are wrong, but if you have it dark without roastiness it seems like a gimmick to me. seems like what a lot of the brew pubs are going for though. FTR I'm not saying the should be stout roasty - just I think there should be a hint of roast or there is no point IMO.

[blatz]

all this talk of black ipa....dammit, I am going to crack my last Stone Sublime tonight...I can't take it!!! 

[deepsouth]

new hop profile....

0.50 oz Apollo [17.50 %] (Dry Hop 14 days) Hops - 
1.50 oz Citra [11.00 %] (Dry Hop 14 days) Hops - 
0.50 oz Zeus [15.00 %] (60 min) Hops 22.7 IBU
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [9.00 %] (60 min) Hops 6.1 IBU
0.25 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] (60 min) Hops 8.8 IBU
0.25 oz Apollo [17.50 %] (60 min) Hops 13.2 IBU
0.50 oz Citra [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 15.0 IBU
0.25 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] (20 min) Hops 5.9 IBU
0.50 oz Citra [11.00 %] (20 min) Hops 9.1 IBU
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [9.00 %] (20 min) Hops 4.1 IBU
0.75 oz Zeus [14.00 %] (0 min) Hops - 
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] (0 min) Hops - 
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [9.00 %] (0 min) Hops - 
0.50 oz Apollo [17.50 %] (0 min) Hops -

[deepsouth]

and the final grain bill was....

12 lb maris otter
.5 lb crystal 60
1 oz black patent
7 oz de-bittered black


i ended up doing a 90 minute boil.  i made one small change to the hop additions...

0.50 oz Zeus [15.00 %] (60 min)
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [9.00 %]
0.25 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] (60 min)
0.25 oz Apollo [17.50 %] (60 min)
0.50 oz Citra [11.00 %] (60 min)
0.25 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] (20 min)
0.75 oz Citra [11.00 %] (20 min)
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [9.00 %] (20 min)
0.75 oz Zeus [14.00 %] (0 min)   
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] (0 min) 
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [9.00 %] (0 min)   
0.50 oz Apollo [17.50 %] (0 min)


i finished with about 4.5 gallons.  it ended up dark dark brown instead of black.  my final gravity was 18 plato, which was spot on with what i was shooting for.

the london ale 1028 (w/starter) started bubbling in a couple hours and this morning had about one inch of krausen!  (my first starter)

i'll update this thread after i know a little more about how this turns out.

first AG brew day with pretty smooth.  no hitches with equipment or anything.  i need to rig up some sort of sparge arm or something that works well with 10 gal. rubbermaid coolers.....

[redbeerman]

I would keep the crystal 60 at 1 lb.  But that's to my taste.  I agree with moving the hops to later additions as well.  My bittering addition is usually around 30 IBU if the beer is 70 or above total.

[weazletoe]

- however I wouldn't turn down a pint, that's for sure. 

Oh, I bet you would turn down a pint of mine! 

[yaleterrace]

as far as the hop schedule goes....  it only looks like about 70 IBU...  ok for an ipa (for my taste) but i probably will add a third hop in at 60 and dry hop with the same one....  citra maybe?
[/quote]

id recommend doing a 45 min bittering hop.  try covering a broader infusion spectrum, its plugs the holes, so to speak, in monotone hop flavor.

[deepsouth]

i kegged this tonight.  i didn't get out a large enough sample to get a FG (sorry), but i can report on some findings....

the fermentation kicked off right away and really took off for probably two+ days before it slowed, but i did not get a lot of krausen.  the trub is the smallest i've ever seen in my dozen batches.

the beer is a dark brown with a hint of red.  it's sweet up front and there is some alcohol burn on the way down.  the alcohol burn actually surprised me.  i'm happy with the malt end.  i wish it had been darker.  hard to call this a black ipa....  given the nice sweetness it has and the (less hoppy than i thought it would be) hoppiness, i'd compare it to a dogfish head indian brown.  the hops are fruity, but not overpowering in any way.  i actually thought this beer would be hoppier and next time, it will be.  that said, i'm still pleased with the result.

this beer tastes fantastic flat and my limited experience in kegging tells me this beer is going to be even better once it's carbonated.

[blatz]

i actually thought this beer would be hoppier and next time, it will be. 

I hate to say "we told you so" but, we told you so. 

Sounds like you have a nice, tasty beer on your hands - prost!

[deepsouth]

i actually thought this beer would be hoppier and next time, it will be. 

I hate to say "we told you so" but, we told you so. 

Sounds like you have a nice, tasty beer on your hands - prost!

touche'

it was a learning experience for sure.  fortunately, brewing learning experiences often still result in fantastic beer.  what a beautiful thing.

anyone know where my big trub is?

[boletivore]

I found a recipe for the Stone Sublimely Self-Righteous online that supposedly came from the brewery.

I am looking at this recipe, sized in boil volume to work with my mashtun

10 gallons
O.G. 1.082
F.G. 1.019
I.B.U. 119

27# 2-row
1# 6oz. Crystal 60L
1# 6oz. Carafa III

6.25oz. Chinook 60min.
3.5oz.   Simcoe 1min.
3.6oz.   Amarillo 1 min.

I will need to figure out substitutes for the Simcoe hops, suggestions are welcomed.  Maybe some Northern Brewer.  I may substitute Cascades for the Amarillo because I have several pounds of Cascade hops.

All thoughts welcome