Author Topic: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500  (Read 9408 times)

Offline redbeerman

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2011, 09:22:01 AM »
What I see conspicuously missing from this thread is the discussion of mash temperatures.  They will greatly affect the attenuation of either of these yeasts.  I mashed my quad at 152 for 2 hours.  Bluesman mashed his at 155.
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2011, 09:24:58 AM »
What I see conspicuously missing from this thread is the discussion of mash temperatures.  They will greatly affect the attenuation of either of these yeasts.  I mashed my quad at 152 for 2 hours.  Bluesman mashed his at 155.

Agreed...mash temp can have a significant impact on the AA% of the beer.
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Offline richardt

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2011, 09:54:31 AM »
While it is true that the mash temp does have an effect on the amount of fermentable sugars and the resultant FG (and apparent attenuation %), the OP is performing a split batch (same wort, regardless of mash temp) with two different yeast strains fermented in the same environment (temp controlled, slow ramp upwards, etc.).  The independent variables are the yeast strains (500 vs 530), the significant variance in the dependent variable (the SG, or FG) between the two strains while using the same wort and fermentation conditions is the mystery.  One would assume that since the WL500 was able to ferment down to 1.012, then, since it was pitched into the exact same wort and fermented under the exact same conditions, why didn't the WL530 strain, as well.  The mash temp shouldn't affect this variance we're observing.  Any effect the mash temp of the wort has on the FG of the beer should be realized with both yeast strains, i.e., T=147F might yield FG around 1.009 while T=156F might yield FG around 1.020 for both yeast strains unless there's a significant difference in apparent attenuation bteween the two strains.

Offline James Lorden

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2011, 10:39:50 AM »
richardt hit all the main points but for what it's worth the mash temp was single infusion 149 for 60 minutes with a 10 minute mash out at 168.

It is true that this was a 10 gallon batch split down the middle and I have a good set up for keeping all of the variables in check.  I would add that in addion to the strain of yeast, there is another variable that was out of my control and that was treatment of the vials before I purchased them.  As I said the production dates were within a week of each other and purchased from the same store so my assumption is that they came from white labs in the same delivery, but it's possible that the 530 may have been misstreated.

I made two starters both on stir plates simultaneous so there should not be a significant difference in the estimated pitching rate - but since I can't do cell counts (yet ;)) I can't be sure what the actual cells/ml was.

Since others are reporting that they have had no problem with 530 when adding sugar to the boil I am starting to lean towards the yeast itself. 
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2011, 12:27:48 PM »
James, by split down the middle, do you mean that you ran off the first half of the wort into a fermenter and then ran off the last half into a second fermenter?  Did you happen to measure the actual gravity in each fermenter? 

I find that wort tends to stratify in the kettle.  I've noted that if I collect a gravity sample immediately after whirlpooling, the gravity is higher than if I wait a few minutes.  I assume that the sugars in the wort tend to settle, which leaves the more watery wort at the top of the kettle.  Since I use a refractometer and collect my sample with a dropper, I can't reach down into the wort very far.  Has anyone else observed this?

If this separation were to occur, then its possible that the worts you started with in these two fermenters were not as identical as assumed.  It would be the first-filled fermenter that would have the higher gravity wort.  Is it possible that this fermenter was the 530 recipient?

Just a thought.

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Offline James Lorden

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2011, 12:54:13 PM »
Martin,

Funny you should mention that because I have made the same observation myself.  When I run off now I have a T attached to the tubing so that I can fill each carboy at the same time.  This way I can mitigate the effect of that potential stratification.

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Offline denny

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2011, 01:13:29 PM »
Martin,

Funny you should mention that because I have made the same observation myself.  When I run off now I have a T attached to the tubing so that I can fill each carboy at the same time.  This way I can mitigate the effect of that potential stratification.



I don't understand this, although I believe that both of you guys have observed it.  But it just doesn't make sense to me.  Let's say you let a bottle of Coke sit.  Does it stratify, too?
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2011, 01:36:19 PM »
Martin,

Funny you should mention that because I have made the same observation myself.  When I run off now I have a T attached to the tubing so that I can fill each carboy at the same time.  This way I can mitigate the effect of that potential stratification.



I don't understand this, although I believe that both of you guys have observed it.  But it just doesn't make sense to me.  Let's say you let a bottle of Coke sit.  Does it stratify, too?
I have not observed this with wort but I have not done many 10 gallon batches either. I do observe it with Coffee, hot chocolate etc. If you sip a cup of coffee with sugar in slowly without stirring the end of the cup is decidedly more sweet than the begining of the cup. I have experienced this even when using syrup to sweeten so I don't think it's a undisolved solids issue.
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Offline James Lorden

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2011, 02:22:42 PM »
Let me also add (and Denny you will appreciate this) the initial thought for using a T at run off was based off of stratification concerns.  The reaon that implementation took place was because it allowed me to run off a little bit quicker!

I also started to do this because I ws annoyed by the additional trub pick up in the second carboy as I got to the bottom of the kettle.

I can't explain the rational and the coke analogy you made makes sense, but I do know that I used to see slightly different gravity (both OG and FG) between two carboys from the same batch before I started simultaneously running off.

I have heard Tasty McDole talk about this a few times as well - before that I thought I was the only guy who thought about this.  Nice to know that Martin is also in the club.

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Offline hokerer

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2011, 04:41:32 PM »
I don't understand this, although I believe that both of you guys have observed it.  But it just doesn't make sense to me.  Let's say you let a bottle of Coke sit.  Does it stratify, too?

Well, the bubbles do all end up at the top :)
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Offline James Lorden

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2011, 05:48:36 AM »

I don't understand this, although I believe that both of you guys have observed it.  But it just doesn't make sense to me.  Let's say you let a bottle of Coke sit.  Does it stratify, too?

Denny check this Mr. Wizard Article out that I found last night.  It's the second question that deals with stratification.

http://www.byo.com/stories/wizard/article/section/121-mr-wizard/861-hose-longevity-a-wort-sampling-mr-wizard
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Offline James Lorden

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2011, 05:55:49 AM »
Well after two days of rousing yeast and gradually raising temps to 75 degrees (with the help of the familiy heating pad) we have good airlock activity again and the beer in the carboy has clouded back up with yeast.

I can't be sure it temperature if temperature is what caused the yeast to stop fermenting but I do know that a higher temp got them working again.  We will have to see where it finishes.

To recap:

pitched at 64
raised two degrees every 2 days up to 70 degrees

OG 1.083
after 8 days wlp 500 1.012 wlp 530 at 1.036

Day 9 begin rousing yeast and applying heat to bring temp to 75
Day 11 active fermentation appears to have restarted.

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Offline richardt

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2011, 07:10:45 AM »
Martin,
Funny you should mention that because I have made the same observation myself.  When I run off now I have a T attached to the tubing so that I can fill each carboy at the same time.  This way I can mitigate the effect of that potential stratification.

I don't understand this, although I believe that both of you guys have observed it.  But it just doesn't make sense to me.  Let's say you let a bottle of Coke sit.  Does it stratify, too?

A good question, though we're probably not comparing apples to apples.
In my mind, Coke is more of a solution than a colloidal suspension
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola_formula
whereas wort is more of a colloidal suspension and a freshly stirred/whirlpooled sample may have more "dissolved" solids that quickly settle out within minutes and yield a different SG reading.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2011, 07:15:00 AM »
I love the character of the WLP530, yet I too have noticed that it is sort of finicky, to temperature as well as in general.  I have had excellent success giving it a shot of yeast energizer halfway through fermentation.  While it ferments kind of slow, I find that this yeast *can* have very high attenuation -- even when you think it is done when it gets down to 1.010 or whatever, it tends to keep on going and going in the bottle, to the point that if you age it for a year or something, the beer can overcarbonate and turn bone-dry.  Basically, once you think fermentation is over, either keep it in a fermenter for a little while longer to be absolutely sure it is finished, and then consider whether you want to backsweeten with lactose or something, or go ahead and bottle/keg it and drink it all up really fast.  I think it tastes better young, so I'm a fan of drinking it all up quickly before it goes bone-dry.  Because this yeast wants to go very slow, but keeps on going.
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Offline James Lorden

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Re: Interesting Observation wlp 530 vs 500
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2011, 07:26:14 AM »
Nice observations.

For it's worth, the flavor of this guy seems real nice just hidden by the fact that there's about 20 gravity points that still need to ferment.  I was contimplating last night doing a Damnation type of thing and adding some bugs and oak.  I generally don't advocate trying to save a bad beer through sourning, blending, ect.  But in this case it seems like a decent beer that still has some residual sugar.  Could be fun but not sure how happy the bugs will be going to be since there's already a good deal of alcahol in there.
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