[madscientist]

For an APA with Simcoe and Cascade (and either amarillo or ahtanum) would a simple grain bill of American 2-Row and Crystal 40 suffice?

[morticaixavier]

yes!

My fast becoming 'house' bitter is simply munich and c40 6.5lb and .5 lb respecively mashed at 158. Bump up the base malt a bit to get from 1.034 to say 1.050 and you've got an ESB/pale ale. I have also done just two row and it's good to. My cali common recipe is 2 row and c60.

[madscientist]

yes!

My fast becoming 'house' bitter is simply munich and c40 6.5lb and .5 lb respecively mashed at 158. Bump up the base malt a bit to get from 1.034 to say 1.050 and you've got an ESB/pale ale. I have also done just two row and it's good to. My cali common recipe is 2 row and c60.

Awesome.  Question Part II, I was planning on using the simcoe for bittering and adding 1:1 Amarillo (or Ahtanum): Cascade at 10 and 0 minutes.  Should I pick up another ounce of simcoe and spread this out throughout the late additions? Or add a hop addition at 15 minutes?  I'm looking for something around 40-45ish IBU with really great hop flavor. 

[morticaixavier]

This last batch I added around 13-15 IBU at 60 minutes and threw a ton of hops in the last 10 minutes 10, 5 and 0. got lots of hop flavour without being to over the top bitter, I think it calced out around 30-35 ibu. I'm not real familiar with simcoe or amarillo but as I understand they are both somewhat citrusy with the simcoe bringing in some tropical and possibly cat pee notes. I would try it but I am the experimental type and with the relative cheapness of pale ales I think it's worth the experiment.

[madscientist]

This last batch I added around 13-15 IBU at 60 minutes and threw a ton of hops in the last 10 minutes 10, 5 and 0. got lots of hop flavour without being to over the top bitter, I think it calced out around 30-35 ibu. I'm not real familiar with simcoe or amarillo but as I understand they are both somewhat citrusy with the simcoe bringing in some tropical and possibly cat pee notes. I would try it but I am the experimental type and with the relative cheapness of pale ales I think it's worth the experiment.

Yes, I'm the same way and thats why I love to brew.  I will have to pay a visit to my LHBS tomorrow after fooling around with the recipe in Beer Smith tonight.

[Mark G]

You could also eliminate that bittering addition completely and just add more hops (including the Simcoe) to your 20 minute through flame-out additions to really maximize flavor/aroma. Use your software to calculate the IBUs and just keep adding until you hit your target.

[morticaixavier]

You could also eliminate that bittering addition completely and just add more hops (including the Simcoe) to your 20 minute through flame-out additions to really maximize flavor/aroma. Use your software to calculate the IBUs and just keep adding until you hit your target.

I might well try that myself next time around. My wife likes hop flavour and aroma but not the bitterness so much. perhaps the 20 min would be a little softer.

[blatz]

You could also eliminate that bittering addition completely and just add more hops (including the Simcoe) to your 20 minute through flame-out additions to really maximize flavor/aroma. Use your software to calculate the IBUs and just keep adding until you hit your target.

+1 or you could do a FWH (calculate it as a full boil 60/90min FWH addition, none of this bogus "it tastes to me like a 20min addition" BS) and then do your regular 10, 5, and flameout schedule hopping (or however you like).

you should get a smoother bitterness and lots of hop flavor that way, but I like what Mark G suggested as well.

BTW - when is the beer going to be ready?  I'll be over then - that is one of my favorite hop combos!

[richardt]

I agree with the all-late hopping approach (use magnum or summit for clean bitterness if you don't).
All hop additions should be every 5 minutes starting around 25 minutes prior to knockout.  
I would recommend a significant portion also be used in the aroma steeping step (i.e., after knockout, when the wort temp falls around 180F)--It will still get sanitized, but your hop oils will be better retained (=more flavor and aroma).

Keep in mind, especially if you take about 30 or more minutes to chill/whirlpool due to your setup or batch volume (e.g. 10 gallons), you get significantly higher perceived IBU's than what BeerSmith calculates (but it is cleaner, smoother).  The way I figure it is that, for my 10 gallon batches, if I do the all-late-hopping approach, I still get significant bittering even when I'm shooting for 30-35 IBU's.  I think it is because it takes a significant amount of time to chill the wort down (in the hot months here in Florida when the ambient temps are in the 90+  range) even with a 50' IC.  I think I'm still getting some AA isomerization during the post-knockout period.  That's my perception anyway; what should be a 30-35 IBU beer seems more like a 45-60 IBU beer.  I've kept notes for each brew day and many say--"hmmm. a little too bitter for the expected IBU's."  I'll need to take ambient temps into consideration when I do re-brews.  Might not be a problem for you with current temps this time of year and your brewing setup/batch size.

[madscientist]

You could also eliminate that bittering addition completely and just add more hops (including the Simcoe) to your 20 minute through flame-out additions to really maximize flavor/aroma. Use your software to calculate the IBUs and just keep adding until you hit your target.

+1 or you could do a FWH (calculate it as a full boil 60/90min FWH addition, none of this bogus "it tastes to me like a 20min addition" BS) and then do your regular 10, 5, and flameout schedule hopping (or however you like).

you should get a smoother bitterness and lots of hop flavor that way, but I like what Mark G suggested as well.

BTW - when is the beer going to be ready?  I'll be over then - that is one of my favorite hop combos!

LOL, I'm shooting for a ready date of mid december.  I will brew the 12th (Maybe the 11th if I can get home early enough from work or don't mind staying up late to brew).  So I'm shooting for mid decemberish. 

I hadn't considerd doing FWH.  I shall play around with all sorts of options and see what I like best.  Thanks everyone for all the suggestions

[madscientist]

Ok here's the recipe I'm thinking of:

Partial Mash, 5gal
Boil vol: 3 gal
OG: 1.050
IBU: 41ish


Grains
---------
2.5 lb American 2 Row
0.5 lb Crystal 40

Extract
----------
3 lb Light DME
1 lb Light DME (30 min addition)

Hop Schedule
---------------------
0.5 oz simcoe, 13.4% (FWH)
0.5 oz cascade 6.4% (FWH)

0.3 oz Ahtanum, 6% 20 min
0.3 oz Cascade, 6.4% 20 min

0.3 oz Cascade, 6.4% 10 min
0.3 oz Simcoe, 13.4% 10 min

0.5 oz Ahtanum, 6%, 0 min
0.5 oz cascade, 6.4%, 0 min
0.2 oz simcoe, 13.4%, 0 min

Yeast: ECY10 Old Newark Ale (Similar to 1056 or WLP001)

I will most likely dry hop it as well.  I will also swich out the Ahtanum for Amarillo if it is available.  Kind of like having the FWH and no bittering addition.

Thoughts?

[hopfenundmalz]

I agree with the all-late hopping approach (use magnum or summit for clean bitterness if you don't).
All hop additions should be every 5 minutes starting around 25 minutes prior to knockout.  
I would recommend a significant portion also be used in the aroma steeping step (i.e., after knockout, when the wort temp falls around 180F)--It will still get sanitized, but your hop oils will be better retained (=more flavor and aroma).

Keep in mind, especially if you take about 30 or more minutes to chill/whirlpool due to your setup or batch volume (e.g. 10 gallons), you get significantly higher perceived IBU's than what BeerSmith calculates (but it is cleaner, smoother).  The way I figure it is that, for my 10 gallon batches, if I do the all-late-hopping approach, I still get significant bittering even when I'm shooting for 30-35 IBU's.  I think it is because it takes a significant amount of time to chill the wort down (in the hot months here in Florida when the ambient temps are in the 90+  range) even with a 50' IC.  I think I'm still getting some AA isomerization during the post-knockout period.  That's my perception anyway; what should be a 30-35 IBU beer seems more like a 45-60 IBU beer.  I've kept notes for each brew day and many say--"hmmm. a little too bitter for the expected IBU's."  I'll need to take ambient temps into consideration when I do re-brews.  Might not be a problem for you with current temps this time of year and your brewing setup/batch size.

You get isomorization at temps above 150F or so.  The rate is lower at lower temps.  I made a Cream Ale that had all of the hops in after the boil had subsided, and then whirlpooled for 45 minutes, and the wort was around 180F at the end.  Got maybe 25 IBUs and great flavor and aroma. Many of the pro's talk about the whirlpool hops adding bitterness.

Adding hops at 180F when chilling is an old trick, that I learned from a friend a long time ago.  A good way to add aroma.

[madscientist]

Also may use 50/50 cascade/simcoe for bittering and forgo the FWH.  Not sure yet...