[sharg54]

Ok so I'm a bit bored and figured I could spend some time making some beer. My plan is to make a cap using raw rice and corn meal rather than flaked rice and corn like normal. What can I say some times I like to tinker with things. My thing is I have never done a American two step mash and was wondering if my gut is sending the wrong vibes or not. I plan on combining  1.5 lbs of rice (ground up in the wife's magic bullet) and a pound of corn meal along with two pounds of American two row malt. Bring it up to 158 deg. for about twenty minuets and than boil it slowly for about half an hour.  Some of the things I have looked at are calling for 2 to 3 qts. per pound of water for the cereal mash and for me that is going to be about 13.5 to 9 qts  of water depending on what way I go. I'm wondering if I should go in at the low end for a thicker mash to help the enzymes do there thing as I believe they do better in a thicker mash or would a thinner mash be the way to go? Any one out there ever do an American two step and if so how do you go about it. 

[euge]

This is new process for me. Is it meant to take place of gelatinization? I've found that I had to cook raw rice first even after passing it through the mill. My instinct tells me thin mash but you might indeed need a thick one with more than 50% adjunct.

[sharg54]

Yeah this is to allow for gelatinization of the rice and corn. I'm thinking thick as well but also think I will add some more grain to the mix just to be on the safe side. 50 % grain to adjust  isn't floating my boat either.

[bluesman]

I recommend adding a pound or two of pils or two row to allow (enzymes) for conversion. That will be plenty.

[malzig]

I plan on combining  1.5 lbs of rice (ground up in the wife's magic bullet) and a pound of corn meal along with two pounds of American two row malt. Bring it up to 158 deg. for about twenty minuets and than boil it slowly for about half an hour.  Some of the things I have looked at are calling for 2 to 3 qts. per pound of water for the cereal mash and for me that is going to be about 13.5 to 9 qts  of water depending on what way I go.

That's essentially the process use.  I wouldn't worry much about the efficiency of the conversion, you just want the enzymes to chew the grain up a bit to improve gelatinization.  The bulk of the conversion will take place in the real mash, after the cereal mash.

I would stick with a very thin mash.  These grains are going absorb a lot of water and swell, so if you run the cereal mash thick, you'll end up with paste.

Edit: I just wanted to add that I start this in cold water, so that it gradually passes through all the enzymatic steps.  In theory, you want the glucanases and proteinases to do a little work, as well as the amylases, to open up as much of the starch as possible to gelatinization.  This may not be really necessary, especially for the rice, but that's the way I've always done it with corn meal.

Also, be prepared to stir this almost constantly once it comes to a boil, or you may risk scorching it.

[sharg54]

Yeah I left the water at 9 qts and the grain the way it was and it came out very thin. I will have to admit this is the first time I ever hit my mash temp spot on without having to add a little more cool water when I dumped it in the cooler. I did pull the temp up slow with the stove until I hit the 158 to give everything a chance to work. It just felt like a good idea as I didn't read the post until now. Your right I had to give my arm a work out when I hit the boil but like I said I was bored anyway. Almost ready to sparge so I'll update later and let you know how the efficiency worked out but everything is looking good so far so I don't think there will be a problem. Thanks for the input..
Can we say wow!!! Normally when making this cap using flaked corn and rice in the same amounts with the same grain bill I can  pull off 7.5 gallons of wort at 1.040. This time it came off at 1.053. After the boil to 5.5 gal. that will work out to 1.072 rather than 1.054 with the exact same mash schedule. I think I'm going to have to add some water to thin it out some or settle for a strong cap and rework the recipe for this set up.  Time well spent.

[malzig]

Sounds like a good afternoon, and you got enough extract for a beer and a half!

[snowtiger87]

Yeah. I was going to mention that your efficiency will increase but then I saw you already brewed it. Also, I like to use the cereal mash schedule described by Randy Mosher in his book, "Radical Brewing".

Looks like you will have an Imperial CAP.

[Pawtucket Patriot]

Yeah. I was going to mention that your efficiency will increase but then I saw you already brewed it. Also, I like to use the cereal mash schedule described by Randy Mosher in his book, "Radical Brewing".

Looks like you will have an Imperial CAP.

Any chance you'd be willing to post Mosher's cereal mash schedule? Or PM it to me?  I'm researching cereal mashes right now for my forthcoming CAP.

[gmac]

I did a cereal mash last week and overshot my OG by 10 points. It seems to really add to the efficiency. Did you have any problems sparging?  Mine was bad but my grind is quite fine.

[snowtiger87]

If I had my book with me I could but unfortunately I am in Afghanistan without it (I can't brew here anyway) 

I am sure someone on the forum has it and can post Randy's ceral mash schedule.

[sharg54]

I did a cereal mash last week and overshot my OG by 10 points. It seems to really add to the efficiency. Did you have any problems sparging?  Mine was bad but my grind is quite fine.

I didn't have a problem with the sparge with the cereal mash but I was expecting one as I normally get a stuck run off when using the flaked rice and corn in large amounts of 20% or more. The rice was more of a powder using the bullet to grind it up so I think that helped a lot as the flaked rice and corn stays in larger chunks than the Corn meal and ground rice do. Not sure what your using to grind your malt with but you don't want it real fine or powder like. You should be leaving large chunks of husk and just busting up the insides of the grain. I use a corn mill to do my crush and have it dialed in fairly well. It took a few brews to get it set up but I get some nice chunks of husk to use as a filter bed. If you are using your brew shop mill you may want to talk to them about checking it's adjustment as a popular shops mill gets a lot of use and has a tendency to go out of adjustment from time to time. You may also consider a pound of rice hulls with your grain to improve your grain bed and your stuck sparge problems. If your batch sparging like I am try slowing down your run off at first to keep your grain bed from compacting and after you get it going clear open it up and let it roll. I will run mine slow until I pull off about a gallon and it is running very clear to let my grain set up and not compact.
 

If I had my book with me I could but unfortunately I am in Afghanistan without it (I can't brew here anyway)

I assume you are in the military. If so,  Thank you For your service.

[a10t2]

Any chance you'd be willing to post Mosher's cereal mash schedule?

I'll post it tonight. PM me if I forget.

[a10t2]

Any chance you'd be willing to post Mosher's cereal mash schedule?

I'm thinking this is what you want.

In this method, a small amount (5 to 10 percent of the total batch) of six-row malt is added to the wheat and oats. This is stewed at 122°F (50°C) for fifteen minutes, then raised to 150°F (65.5°C) and held for another fifteen minutes. This goo is then heated further and boiled for fifteen minutes. At this point, you should have your malt mash at the protein-rest stage (122°F/50°C)) [sic], and the boiled grains, when added to it, will bring the whole mash up to 155°F (68.5°C). This fairly high mash temperature is used to produce a wort with large amounts of unfermentables, which helps contribute to its texture. After forty-five minutes of mashing, the mash is raised to 170°F (76.5°C) to stop enzyme activity and help liquefy the whole thing. Traditionally, the wheat chaff removed at threshing was added back to help provide a filter bed. Rice hulls, about 1 pound per 5 gallons (0.45 kilograms per 19 liters), will do the same thing. Be sure not to let the bed drop below 160°F (71°C) during sparging or runoff will become very difficult.
If all of this seems a bit overwhelming to you, there's a workaround. With a high proportion of malted wheat (70 percent is about right), you can achieve a similar thick, lubricious body. Use instant oats rather than the old-fashioned kind, as they require no precooking.

[snowtiger87]

That is not it. It is under the "other fermentables" section and has a chart (similar to the decoction chart). I believe the first rest is at 95F or so.