[denny]

Check with Denny but I don't think there are problems with not hitting a mash out.  I suspect things will be smoother at about 170F but you will stop the enzymes anyway with the boil.  It will take longer to boil if you sparge cool

A mashout really doesn't matter in batch sparging, and unless you hold a temp of 170 for 20 min. or more you aren't really doing one.  I usually use sparge water around 185-190F so that I can be sure I've gotten complete gelatinization and conversion, not for a mashout.

[ca_mouse]

A mashout really doesn't matter in batch sparging, and unless you hold a temp of 170 for 20 min. or more you aren't really doing one.  I usually use sparge water around 185-190F so that I can be sure I've gotten complete gelatinization and conversion, not for a mashout.

Am I correct in presuming because of the highly modified grains we use that mash out isn't really a necessity? I'm currently in the early stage of my 90-min 148F mash and looking at all the time information from brewsmith 2, it seems to want a 2 tier mash out/rinse schedule. I've fly sparged previously because I was using a round cooler, but moved from the 5 gallon system up to a 52-qt and will be doing batch sparging for the first time today.

Mouse

[denny]

Am I correct in presuming because of the highly modified grains we use that mash out isn't really a necessity? I'm currently in the early stage of my 90-min 148F mash and looking at all the time information from brewsmith 2, it seems to want a 2 tier mash out/rinse schedule. I've fly sparged previously because I was using a round cooler, but moved from the 5 gallon system up to a 52-qt and will be doing batch sparging for the first time today.

Mouse

Nope, it really doesn't have anything to do with modification.  It's becasue in batch sparging you get to a boil much more quickly than in fly sparging.  Keep in mind that Beersmith is a toll to help you brew the way you want to brew, not instructions about how to brew.  You don't have to use the steps it defaults to.  Unless you can't fir all the sparge water in your cooler at once, I'd advise you do do the mash runoff, then all all your sparge water in one step.

[topher.bartos]

A mashout really doesn't matter in batch sparging, and unless you hold a temp of 170 for 20 min. or more you aren't really doing one.  I usually use sparge water around 185-190F so that I can be sure I've gotten complete gelatinization and conversion, not for a mashout.

I thought you don't want your water to be higher than 170 to prevent extracting tannins...

[ca_mouse]

Nope, it really doesn't have anything to do with modification.  It's becasue in batch sparging you get to a boil much more quickly than in fly sparging.  Keep in mind that Beersmith is a toll to help you brew the way you want to brew, not instructions about how to brew.  You don't have to use the steps it defaults to.  Unless you can't fir all the sparge water in your cooler at once, I'd advise you do do the mash runoff, then all all your sparge water in one step.

Thank you again for being a great sage adviser! There will be plenty of room for all the sparge water to fit after the run off (probably could put all the grain and the entire amount of water for this brew in the cooler at once). I'm taking your advise on mashing at the lower temperatures and sparging at a higher temp then the software suggests.

Mouse

[mmitchem]

A mashout really doesn't matter in batch sparging, and unless you hold a temp of 170 for 20 min. or more you aren't really doing one.  I usually use sparge water around 185-190F so that I can be sure I've gotten complete gelatinization and conversion, not for a mashout.

I thought you don't want your water to be higher than 170 to prevent extracting tannins...

I have always heard if you keep the pH below 6.0 you won't have to worry about tannin extraction.

[topher.bartos]

From John Palmer's How to Brew Chapter 17:

"Sparging is the rinsing of the grain bed to extract as much of the sugars from the grain as possible without extracting mouth-puckering tannins from the grain husks. Typically, 1.5 times as much water is used for sparging as for mashing (e.g., 8 lbs. malt at 2 qt./lb. = 4 gallon mash, so 6 gallons of sparge water). The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency in the beer."

[Jimmy K]

I thought you don't want your water to be higher than 170 to prevent extracting tannins...

I have always heard if you keep the pH below 6.0 you won't have to worry about tannin extraction.

With continuous sparging, you lack the ability to keep pH low towards the end of the sparge because most sugars/minerals have been washed out of the mash and you're basically running water through. This is not the case in batch sparging - hence not worrying about tannins as much. 

The other factor is that the hot water quickly mixes with the cooler grains resulting in mash water that is close to mashout temperatures.  If you continuous sparged with 190 degree water, you'd end up with grains that were actually that hot.

[denny]

A mashout really doesn't matter in batch sparging, and unless you hold a temp of 170 for 20 min. or more you aren't really doing one.  I usually use sparge water around 185-190F so that I can be sure I've gotten complete gelatinization and conversion, not for a mashout.

I thought you don't want your water to be higher than 170 to prevent extracting tannins...

Tannin extraction is pretty much dependent on pH, not temp.  Think about a decoction mash...you boil the grain and don't extract undesirable amounts of tannins because the pH is low enough to prevent it.

[denny]

From John Palmer's How to Brew Chapter 17:

"Sparging is the rinsing of the grain bed to extract as much of the sugars from the grain as possible without extracting mouth-puckering tannins from the grain husks. Typically, 1.5 times as much water is used for sparging as for mashing (e.g., 8 lbs. malt at 2 qt./lb. = 4 gallon mash, so 6 gallons of sparge water). The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency in the beer."

For one thing, John is talking about fly sparging, not batch sparging.  For another, I have hundreds of batches that disagree with him. 

[Alewyfe]

Nope, it really doesn't have anything to do with modification.  It's becasue in batch sparging you get to a boil much more quickly than in fly sparging.  Keep in mind that Beersmith is a toll to help you brew the way you want to brew, not instructions about how to brew.  You don't have to use the steps it defaults to.  Unless you can't fir all the sparge water in your cooler at once, I'd advise you do do the mash runoff, then all all your sparge water in one step.

Thank you again for being a great sage adviser! There will be plenty of room for all the sparge water to fit after the run off (probably could put all the grain and the entire amount of water for this brew in the cooler at once). I'm taking your advise on mashing at the lower temperatures and sparging at a higher temp then the software suggests.

Mouse

Beersmith IS a tool, and a very adaptable one. You can set you mash profile to anything you'd like. No sparge, batch sparge, mash out and batch sparge, etc., etc. Pay no attention to it's defaults. Go into the equipment and mash pofiles and set it up to work the way you want to do it.

[ca_mouse]

Beersmith IS a tool, and a very adaptable one. You can set you mash profile to anything you'd like. No sparge, batch sparge, mash out and batch sparge, etc., etc. Pay no attention to it's defaults. Go into the equipment and mash pofiles and set it up to work the way you want to do it.

Thanks Diane. I was just speaking about the vast amount of differences between not only the software, but a lot of the published brewers. Most of everything that I've read in Denny's posting and interviews seems to be spot on with my own observations. I'm still tweaking things in the software to match what I see after the fact. Pretty soon I hope that I will have figured out any minor corrections that I need to make on my side to make even better beer. My first AG was a Sweet Stout I did on 1/1 and it is a very enjoyable beer.

Mouse

[Alewyfe]

mentored

Beersmith IS a tool, and a very adaptable one. You can set you mash profile to anything you'd like. No sparge, batch sparge, mash out and batch sparge, etc., etc. Pay no attention to it's defaults. Go into the equipment and mash pofiles and set it up to work the way you want to do it.

Thanks Diane. I was just speaking about the vast amount of differences between not only the software, but a lot of the published brewers. Most of everything that I've read in Denny's posting and interviews seems to be spot on with my own observations. I'm still tweaking things in the software to match what I see after the fact. Pretty soon I hope that I will have figured out any minor corrections that I need to make on my side to make even better beer. My first AG was a Sweet Stout I did on 1/1 and it is a very enjoyable beer.

Mouse

Denny is the "bees knees" as far as I'm concerned. Accessible and understandable - always. I understand he was instrumental in teaching Noah how to brew.

[denny]

Denny is the "bees knees" as far as I'm concerned. Accessible and understandable - always. I understand he was instrumental in teaching Noah how to brew.

Yeah, and I was old THEN! 

[fmader]

Ok, I usually have gotten 70% efficiency with my brews to about +/- .002 of the estimated OG. I had always batched sparged around 170-175. After reading what Denny said about sparging at 185-190, I did so yesterday with my Red IPA. My target OG was 1.070....I hit 1.078. Could this be a result of the sparge water having a higher temp? Or did I totally s*** the bed when calculating the grain bill?

2 Row Pale Malt = 9 lb 8 oz
Munich Malt = 4 lb
Flaked Oats = 1 lb
Caramel/Crystal 80L = 1 lb
Caramel/Crystal 60L = 4 oz
Caramel/Crystal 120L = 4 oz
Chocolate Malt = .5 oz

Again, these amounts were derived from calculating 70% efficiency.