[Iliff Ave]

Was going to do a table saison but am using T58 which I assume won't work for that. Probably going to shoot for 5% ABV or so. My original plan was to go with my saison recipe but just scale down the amounts accordingly. Maybe this is more like a belgian pale ale?

From memory it's something like:
76% pilsner
12% munich
8% wheat
4% table sugar

T58 gave me 85% attenuation for a recent wit that I mashed at 152. Should I remove the table sugar and keep the mash temp high? Should I add some aromatic or specialty malt?

I like my beers dry so I was considering just leavin the table sugar in and mashing at 147 like I would do for a saison. Input?

[morticaixavier]

I might bump the munich a bit from your norm if you are going for table strength and super dry. the maltiness will help it not feel too thin. and then just pump the carbonation up a bit to give it a full mouthfeel and it should be tasty and easy drinking.

[Iliff Ave]

Awesome thanks!

How does this look? Centennial is out of place but I might keep it anyway.

70% Pilsner
17.5% Munich
7.5% wheat
5% table sugar

10 g Magnum 60 min
14 g Centennial 20 min
28 g EKG flameout

OG 1.048
FG 1.007? based on 85% attenuation
5.4% ABV
28 IBUs

[troybinso]

That is similar to a recipe I have been working on. I want to use 85% pilsner and 15% munich, but I am shooting for a lower abv - maybe around 4.5% or even lower. I am a little worried about the body of the beer being to thin so I think I will just mash really high - around 158F and hope for the best.

I am also considering a very light touch of honey in the fermenter and possibly a little spice addition at the end of the boil. Coriander or chamomile have come to mind. I am planning on using wy3522 Ardennes yeast on one half of the batch and 3422 Belgian Wheat on the other.

Yours is going to be quite hoppy with 3 oz of aromatic hops, and I am not sure I would like that as much. The idea for me is to let the yeast be in the lead, then the malt, and then the hops take a back seat. I like a hoppy saison, but I don't think t58 is really a saison yeast, is it?

[Iliff Ave]

That is similar to a recipe I have been working on. I want to use 85% pilsner and 15% munich, but I am shooting for a lower abv - maybe around 4.5% or even lower. I am a little worried about the body of the beer being to thin so I think I will just mash really high - around 158F and hope for the best.

I am also considering a very light touch of honey in the fermenter and possibly a little spice addition at the end of the boil. Coriander or chamomile have come to mind. I am planning on using wy3522 Ardennes yeast on one half of the batch and 3422 Belgian Wheat on the other.

Yours is going to be quite hoppy with 3 oz of aromatic hops, and I am not sure I would like that as much. The idea for me is to let the yeast be in the lead, then the malt, and then the hops take a back seat. I like a hoppy saison, but I don't think t58 is really a saison yeast, is it?

From what I understand T58 should not be used for saisons although some have reported doing just that. I just adapted my saison recipe though am not expecting one.

I only have 1.5 oz in the last 20 min not 3.

I was going to drop the ABV even further but I have a 4.4% session ale on now so I don't think it is necessary. I don't know exactly what the threshold for a 'table beer' is so I guess this would more likely just fit into belgian specialty? Most of the beers I brew are hybrids anyway so I am not too worried about categories...

[reverseapachemaster]

T-58 IMO is close to a wit strain than a saison or abbey strain but these are all strains that share a number of traits so their interchangeable use is not unreasonable.

I'm not sure 5% qualifies as table beer. Table beer is usually 2% ABV or less. Basically a replacement for water at the dinner table. There are beers floating around commercially with that label at twice that strength, much like 5-6% session beers. 

I brew several saisons in the ~4% ABV range and even with the great attenuation of saison strains still do not come out with thin or watery beers. One of my base recipes for saison is very similar to your recipe, minus the table sugar. They are definitely dry but not watery. If your goal is to create something more along the lines of a Belgian blond than a saison then you might want a little more body than a saison would have at that strength. The table sugar would then be unnecessary. Depending on the attenuative power of T-58 that might be enough to create the body you need without worrying about moving mash temperatures up or down.

[Iliff Ave]

Thanks for informing me about the term 'table beer'. I was pretty much just equating it to a 'session beer'. I think I will go with something similar to what I have posted for a first attempt. I rarely nail a first attempt for my tastes anyway so it will likely need tweaking regardless...

I have only used T58 once for a wit. I will keep the table sugar just to get the attenuation as high as possible. I was suprised I got 85% out of the first time so I think I can get it close to 90% for a pretty dry beer.

[Joe Sr.]

I used t-58 for a lower ABV saison and thought it came out quite well.  Lower ABV was probably around 5-6% or so.

You can use Belle Saison if you have doubts about t-58.

[Iliff Ave]

That is good to hear. I am not worried about T58 just thought I couldn't use it for a saison. I will stick with it since I have it on hand.

This batch is getting some crabapples in fermenter as well. I haven't decided on amounts yet because I don't want to overdo it. The good thing is these guys are slightly more tart than a granny smith and quite edible.

[erockrph]

That is good to hear. I am not worried about T58 just thought I couldn't use it for a saison. I will stick with it since I have it on hand.

This batch is getting some crabapples in fermenter as well. I haven't decided on amounts yet because I don't want to overdo it. The good thing is these guys are slightly more tart than a granny smith and quite edible.

You can call it whatever you want, but to me you can't get a true saison without a saison yeast strain. It's like brewing a hefe without a hefe yeast - the yeast character is inherent in the definition of the style. Having said that, this only really makes a difference in the name. Whatever you call it, it sounds like a tasty brew.

[HoosierBrew]

That is good to hear. I am not worried about T58 just thought I couldn't use it for a saison. I will stick with it since I have it on hand.

This batch is getting some crabapples in fermenter as well. I haven't decided on amounts yet because I don't want to overdo it. The good thing is these guys are slightly more tart than a granny smith and quite edible.

You can call it whatever you want, but to me you can't get a true saison without a saison yeast strain. It's like brewing a hefe without a hefe yeast - the yeast character is inherent in the definition of the style. Having said that, this only really makes a difference in the name. Whatever you call it, it sounds like a tasty brew.

I agree, both on using a true saison strain to get a saison AND that it sounds like a good beer anyway.

[Iliff Ave]

Cool. Thanks guys. Hoping to get to this guy next week.

Just added the palisade, cascade, and chinook dry hops to my OPA...very excited for that one

[Joe Sr.]

I think saison, of any style, is one that's open to a wide variety of interpretations.  And that includes yeast choices.

If you're looking for something that matches DuPont, you won't get it with T-58.  But not every saison needs to be DuPont.

T-58 should throw clove and pepper phenols both of which I think are appropriate in a saison.

There are people who make saisons with Ardennes.

Ommegang Hennipin is made with the same yeast they use for all their other beers.  Is that not a saison?

I suppose it's all in your own interpretation and good beer is good beer nonetheless. 

All that said, I sure wouldn't use US-05 or an English yeast and call it a saison, but I think there's latitude to go beyond 3711 and 3724.

[HoosierBrew]

I think saison, of any style, is one that's open to a wide variety of interpretations.  And that includes yeast choices.

If you're looking for something that matches DuPont, you won't get it with T-58.  But not every saison needs to be DuPont.

T-58 should throw clove and pepper phenols both of which I think are appropriate in a saison.

There are people who make saisons with Ardennes.

Ommegang Hennipin is made with the same yeast they use for all their other beers.  Is that not a saison?

I suppose it's all in your own interpretation and good beer is good beer nonetheless. 

All that said, I sure wouldn't use US-05 or an English yeast and call it a saison, but I think there's latitude to go beyond 3711 and 3724.

I don't disagree to a big extent, Joe.  IMO Saison is a beer that is at least partly about technique - mash low, finish really low. I had batches with 3724 that stalled and never got below 1.010ish - the yeast character was good but the beer had too much body left. Was that saison ? I don't know, probably, maybe not. I just think you need both - attenuation and the unique,earthy yeast character. And I have had plenty of Hennepin and I like it regardless. At the end of the day I agree, good beer is good beer.

[Joe Sr.]

I've stopped using 3724 for that reason.

I never thought about it though.  Is a saison that stalled with 3724 still a saison?  I think maybe, but it will require some more thought.

I have had a few beers that were "s'posed ta be"s in that they ain't quite what they were s'posed to be.  Never figured out what else to call them.