Author Topic: Mash Times  (Read 2108 times)

Offline braz24

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Mash Times
« on: August 14, 2014, 04:34:01 PM »
My first all grain IPA was awesome but I'm looking for a little more mouth feel.  I use Brew Smith 2 and had used the Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge profile.  This called for a step temp of 148 degrees for 60 minutes.  I think I can accomplish a tad more mouthfeel by changing the profile to a Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge.  This calls for a step temp of 156 degrees for 45 minutes.  I understand the higher temp for this profile but I'm confused about less mash time.  Can someone explain this to me.  I haven't found anything online that can explain this.  Thanks!
Craig

Offline Stevie

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2014, 04:37:24 PM »
Conversion occurs faster at higher temps. Basic chemistry.


148 for medium body seems very low to me. I would think 151-152 would be more appropriate.

Online jeffy

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2014, 04:38:26 PM »
My first all grain IPA was awesome but I'm looking for a little more mouth feel.  I use Brew Smith 2 and had used the Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge profile.  This called for a step temp of 148 degrees for 60 minutes.  I think I can accomplish a tad more mouthfeel by changing the profile to a Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge.  This calls for a step temp of 156 degrees for 45 minutes.  I understand the higher temp for this profile but I'm confused about less mash time.  Can someone explain this to me.  I haven't found anything online that can explain this.  Thanks!
It's the way the two different enzymes work.  Alpha takes less time to convert than beta because of the way they break the starch branches.  Chemistry.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
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Offline beersk

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2014, 05:10:18 PM »
Conversion occurs faster at higher temps. Basic chemistry.


148 for medium body seems very low to me. I would think 151-152 would be more appropriate.
Beersmith medium body is more like 154F. The light body is around 150F for 75 minutes.

I'd mash an IPA around 150-152. You want a good fermentable wort so it finishes dry to let the hops shine. Well, that's what I want...you maybe want something different.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2014, 05:14:42 PM »
A) 148F mash temp typically results in a thinner body. I use 153 for most normal brews, and 160-162 for a fuller body

B) The conversion reactions happen more rapidly at higher temperatures. That's probably where the different amount of time comes from. Frankly, most brewers I know use a standard mash time for almost all their beers and simply adjust the mash temp. The only exception (for me, at least) is low-temperature mashes (in the 145-148 temperature range). I'll usually mash about 30 minutes longer since the reactions run a little slower and I want to get full conversion in those brews.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2014, 05:18:48 PM »
+1 to all of the above.  Hotter = faster = more unfermentable sugars = greater body.

You can safely pick one favorite mash time and temperature and use it for 90% of your beers.  I mash 90% of mine at 148-150 F for 45 minutes.  Occasionally I'll mash a little longer if I want it super dry.  Otherwise, that's what I like.  You might prefer 155 F.

In any case, I will always argue that 45 minutes is good enough.  Or even 40.  No need to mash any longer than that unless you want the beer super dry.
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Offline denny

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2014, 05:24:12 PM »
In any case, I will always argue that 45 minutes is good enough.  Or even 40.  No need to mash any longer than that unless you want the beer super dry.

Do you check your conversion efficiency?  Mine has gone from about 85% at 60 min. to 99-100% at 90.  I always do a 90 min. mash these days.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2014, 05:39:51 PM »
+1 to all of the above.  Hotter = faster = more unfermentable sugars = greater body.

You can safely pick one favorite mash time and temperature and use it for 90% of your beers.  I mash 90% of mine at 148-150 F for 45 minutes.  Occasionally I'll mash a little longer if I want it super dry.  Otherwise, that's what I like.  You might prefer 155 F.

In any case, I will always argue that 45 minutes is good enough.  Or even 40.  No need to mash any longer than that unless you want the beer super dry.

On your system, and at the temperatures you use that may be good enough. Personally, my efficiencies jumped considerably, and became much more consistant, when I went to a 75-minute mash. FWIW, this is for no-sparge/BIAB at 153F.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 06:04:25 PM by erockrph »
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2014, 05:50:38 PM »
I recently listened to an interview with Flat Tail (a sour brewery in Corvallis). He brought up some interesting points from their experience. Early on they were trying hard to leave starch behind. He said that they even tried lautering as soon as they mashed in and it didn't work. He said today's malts have so much DP that its pretty tough to not convert. But he also said that with modern malts there is little difference in mash temps unless you're talking a big temp change. In other words if you want a noticeable change in body or fermentability you need a big change in temp. Like the difference between 145 and 148 isnt much. But the difference between 145 and 155 probably will be noticed.

Remember the bubble chart Denny posted a while back. They overlap. The enzymes are thick in modern malts, and they are not digital. Meaning that its not as if alpha gets turned on at 150 and beta gets turned off.

I tend to agree with what the Flat Tail brewer was saying because I dont notice much difference beteeen a modern malt beer that is mashed at 155 vs 150. I notice differences between one mashed at 150 and one at 145, and its not a huge glaring difference.

Offline beersk

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2014, 05:55:02 PM »
I recently listened to an interview with Flat Tail (a sour brewery in Corvallis). He brought up some interesting points from their experience. Early on they were trying hard to leave starch behind. He said that they even tried lautering as soon as they mashed in and it didn't work. He said today's malts have so much DP that its pretty tough to not convert. But he also said that with modern malts there is little difference in mash temps unless you're talking a big temp change. In other words if you want a noticeable change in body or fermentability you need a big change in temp. Like the difference between 145 and 148 isnt much. But the difference between 145 and 155 probably will be noticed.

Remember the bubble chart Denny posted a while back. They overlap. The enzymes are thick in modern malts, and they are not digital. Meaning that its not as if alpha gets turned on at 150 and beta gets turned off.

I tend to agree with what the Flat Tail brewer was saying because I dont notice much difference beteeen a modern malt beer that is mashed at 155 vs 150. I notice differences between one mashed at 150 and one at 145, and its not a huge glaring difference.
Thanks for sharing. That makes sense with the highly modified malts of today. Now if we could only decide if decoction really makes a difference or not...
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2014, 06:02:42 PM »
No kidding. I'm not totally certain, but I was listening to a Gordon Strong interview from back when his book was coming out. According to him, and caviating that I was multi tasking at the time so dont quote me here, but he said that the same thing applies. I gathered that if you are going to do decoction use lower DP malts like continental pils. He also said he likes to to a 130 rest for 15 minutes with those to help with clarity and I think he said it brings out a little more malt aroma. I won't be doing decoction, but this winter I might try the 130 step to see what it gets me in a germy pils or helles etc.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2014, 06:46:52 PM »
I agree it takes several degrees in mash temp to get a real noticeable change. Except for (to me) the difference you see going sub-150F.  Going from say 151 - 155F I see little difference, but going from 151F down to 147F I see a much more noticeable difference in body.
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Offline beersk

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2014, 07:18:11 PM »
No kidding. I'm not totally certain, but I was listening to a Gordon Strong interview from back when his book was coming out. According to him, and caviating that I was multi tasking at the time so dont quote me here, but he said that the same thing applies. I gathered that if you are going to do decoction use lower DP malts like continental pils. He also said he likes to to a 130 rest for 15 minutes with those to help with clarity and I think he said it brings out a little more malt aroma. I won't be doing decoction, but this winter I might try the 130 step to see what it gets me in a germy pils or helles etc.
Huh, well maybe I'll try a rest at 130 as well. The book on Helles by Horst Dornbusch suggests you can't call it a true helles if you don't do a protein rest...well, whatevs, dude. Guess I better try it, see how I like it.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2014, 07:22:31 PM »
In any case, I will always argue that 45 minutes is good enough.  Or even 40.  No need to mash any longer than that unless you want the beer super dry.

Do you check your conversion efficiency?  Mine has gone from about 85% at 60 min. to 99-100% at 90.  I always do a 90 min. mash these days.

I never differentiated "conversion efficiency" from "X Y Z" other type of efficiency.  I use the more "pragmatic" and less scientific "brewhouse efficiency" that gets spat out by my homebrewing software.  When I see my brewhouse efficiency is in the 90s, then I don't care why.  In fact, I'm also the guy who OPENED the gap on my grain mill because I was worried that too high efficiency might be watering down the malt flavors in my beer -- the theory goes that I didn't need to use as much malt as other people, so this is why my malty beer were getting dinged in competition for "needs more maltiness" compared to others.  So now I shoot for mid-80s brewhouse efficiency, and I've been happy there ever since.  I really don't care about maximizing efficiency, as long as my beer tastes as good as possible.  I am also considering experimenting a lot more with no-sparge beers to maximize malt flavors.  Efficiency in the 60s is not bad at all, and might even be desirable, to me at least.  More experiments are needed.
Dave

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Offline denny

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Re: Mash Times
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2014, 07:30:10 PM »
Huh, well maybe I'll try a rest at 130 as well. The book on Helles by Horst Dornbusch suggests you can't call it a true helles if you don't do a protein rest...well, whatevs, dude. Guess I better try it, see how I like it.

I'm not sure I'd take his advice, for a number of reasons.  And a protein rest should depend on the protein level of the malt you use.
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