[dmtaylor]

This is another one of those things about FWH.  Different people do it different ways.  There really are no "wrong" answers.  You can add YOUR hops to YOUR beers any way that YOU see fit.  It's all good, if not consistent.  And honestly, there's really not much difference between steeping and then boiling your hops, versus just boiling them for 60 minutes, or 90 minutes, or anything in between.  It's all bittering and gets you to almost exactly the same place.  More heating and more boiling may lead to a handful of extra IBUs, which you will probably not be able to taste the difference.  So it really doesn't matter much if at all.

[hopfenundmalz]

I don't FWH anymore, but if I did, they would be in the first wort for about 15-20 minutes before bringing up towards a boil.  Then leave them in, yadda yadda.  As far as IBUs, science has proven that you get more IBUs out of FWH than conventional bittering hop additions, and that the flavor difference is almost imperceptible or perhaps just a tad bit more bitter than a standard bittering addition.  There was an excellent experiment run by Basic Brewing Radio that you should listen to if you haven't where this was all tested and tasted.  The experiment was done alongside the mash hopping technique as well.  The experiment proved also that you get a handful of IBUs (like the equivalent of a 10-minute boil) from mash hopping, and very little flavor and aroma, which basically debunks the benefits of mash hopping, unless perhaps you have a huge amount of hops to waste and don't like the flavor of hops too much.  That being said, I might give it a try sometime since I do have a ton of old hops to waste.

The one with David Curtis from Bell's a General Store? He presented at NHC with the numbers from lab tests. Nice to work for a big brewery if you are doing an experiment like this. 

[denny]

The one with David Curtis from Bell's a General Store? He presented at NHC with the numbers from lab tests. Nice to work for a big brewery if you are doing an experiment like this. 

OTOH, if the numbers some form a brewery, I'm always skeptical of how the relate to homebrewing.

[dmtaylor]

Yes, that's the one.  He ran the experiment on a small system.  I forget if it was 20 gallons or 1 barrel or what it was.  As such I do indeed think it was representative of homebrew scale.  We're not talking a big craft brew scale.  This was their little demo system.

[denny]

Yes, that's the one.  He ran the experiment on a small system.  I forget if it was 20 gallons or 1 barrel or what it was.  As such I do indeed think it was representative of homebrew scale.  We're not talking a big craft brew scale.  This was their little demo system.

Yeah, I might be able to accept it on that level.

[hopfenundmalz]

The one with David Curtis from Bell's a General Store? He presented at NHC with the numbers from lab tests. Nice to work for a big brewery if you are doing an experiment like this. 

OTOH, if the numbers some form a brewery, I'm always skeptical of how the relate to homebrewing.

IIRC David brewed the batches on his 5 gallon electric system at home. Bottles were submitted to Bells lab for IBU measurements. The different batches were run through the breweries trained sensory panel. David is the manager of the General Store, which sells hombrew supplies, Bells merchandise, packaged Bells beer, and growlers. So he had a good in with the lab people to get this done for the conference. The take away was that Mash hopping is a good way to waste hops (at least that is what I got).

Edit - I looked at the presentaion.

FWH has 1.08 to 1.010 times the IBU compared to the 60 Min. control beers.
Mash hops have 0.35 times the IBU compared to the 60 min. control.

When judging for hop character between FWH and control, 5 out of 6 on the panel chose FWH.

[ynotbrusum]

 The take away was that Mash hopping is a good way to waste hops (at least that is what I got).

Edit - I looked at the presentaion.

FWH has 1.08 to 1.010 times the IBU compared to the 60 Min. control beers.
Mash hops have 0.35 times the IBU compared to the 60 min. control.

When judging for hop character between FWH and control, 5 out of 6 on the panel chose FWH.

Interesting results - it makes you wonder if they could pick out the difference and were predisposed to favor FWH?

I have no dog in this hunt.  I have done everything discussed above and occasionally go back to FWH as a whim.  I remember that there was a Pliny version floating around that called for mash hopping - my impression was that it didn't seem worth it IIRC.

[HoosierBrew]

 The take away was that Mash hopping is a good way to waste hops (at least that is what I got).

+1.  I've never found any benefit whatsoever. It was all the rage for awhile though.

[mchrispen]

The only positive I found with mash hopping was the lovely aromas during mashing. It all disappeared in the boil and ferment. Still the garage was heavenly...


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[hopfenundmalz]

 The take away was that Mash hopping is a good way to waste hops (at least that is what I got).

Edit - I looked at the presentaion.

FWH has 1.08 to 1.010 times the IBU compared to the 60 Min. control beers.
Mash hops have 0.35 times the IBU compared to the 60 min. control.

When judging for hop character between FWH and control, 5 out of 6 on the panel chose FWH.

Interesting results - it makes you wonder if they could pick out the difference and were predisposed to favor FWH?

I have no dog in this hunt.  I have done everything discussed above and occasionally go back to FWH as a whim.  I remember that there was a Pliny version floating around that called for mash hopping - my impression was that it didn't seem worth it IIRC.

IIRC the taste panel tests were blind.

[narvin]

As far as IBUs, science has proven that you get more IBUs out of FWH than conventional bittering hop additions, and that the flavor difference

Well, to be pedantic "science" did not prove anything about the flavor.  A single experiment conducted using the scientific method showed a taste difference, but there's really no statistical significance here, or an analysis  of the complexities of taste.

If science could even prove what beer flavor is, that would be a major breakthrough.  But we can barely quantify how hundreds of different chemical compounds combine to make a single flavor.

[dmtaylor]

All I can say is, run your own experiments and don't let people fool you into believing anything that isn't truth.

[jeffy]

All I can say is, run your own experiments and don't let people fool you into believing anything that isn't truth.

Are you channeling your inner Denny?

[dmtaylor]

In some ways I am Denny's evil twin.  Not sure if he'd agree with me on that.  I'm not a hippie, but I do have a kickbutt beard.  I'm a little less kind and more bitter and stubborn.  Or at least, that's my impression based on the wonderful world of the interwebs.   

[tonyccopeland]

The only positive I found with mash hopping was the lovely aromas during mashing. It all disappeared in the boil and ferment. Still the garage was heavenly...


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+1