Author Topic: How long is a FWH?  (Read 2587 times)

Malty

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How long is a FWH?
« on: October 07, 2014, 03:10:17 PM »
I know that a FWH is placing a certain amount of hops in the BK and then collecting the hot first runnings of the mash over those hops.  Some say this is equivalent to a 20 min hop addition and some say it's more bitter than that, probably based on the process each uses.

Most recipes don't give the length of time or temperature.  So if you're batch sparging it's like 5-10 min. to run off, if you're fly sparging it's more like 30-60min+.

My question is, when a recipe says FWH, how long do you let the hops steep in first runnings, before the boil starts?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 03:17:08 PM by Malty »

Offline fmader

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2014, 03:14:45 PM »
They stay in for the entire length of the boil.... At least mine do.
Frank

Malty

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2014, 03:19:07 PM »
They stay in for the entire length of the boil.... At least mine do.

Thanks for the response.  So do mine, but I'm referring more to the time before the boil starts, which seems to be why they're labeled first wort.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2014, 03:22:16 PM »
They stay in for the entire length of the boil.... At least mine do.

+1.  Leave 'em in.

EDIT  -  Whatever amount of time it takes you to collect the wort and get it to a boil. Time will vary from system to system, person to person.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 03:24:57 PM by HoosierBrew »
Jon H.

Offline Stevie

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2014, 03:22:30 PM »
The time will vary based on the process and how long it takes for you wort to get to a boil. For me it's about 20-30 minutes as I batch sparge. For those that fly sparge, it could be 90 maybe.

Malty

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2014, 03:26:41 PM »
The time will vary based on the process and how long it takes for you wort to get to a boil. For me it's about 20-30 minutes as I batch sparge. For those that fly sparge, it could be 90 maybe.

And this length of time affects the level of bitterness contribution correct?  So, then how does a recipe convey the authors intent, or does the variation of 20min - 90min not matter that much?

Offline Stevie

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2014, 03:29:43 PM »
I think the temp is low enough for little bitterness until the boil starts. I don't know the science, but I use it all the time. I brew a kolsch 100% fwh with nelson that I like a lot.

Offline denny

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2014, 03:29:50 PM »
My impression from FWH a couple hundred batches is that as long as the hops are in there for 15 min., there isn't a lot of change after that.  I feel like any flavor or bitterness you get from them kind if plateaus at that point.  No scientific data, just my impression.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 03:31:42 PM by denny »
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Malty

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2014, 03:35:23 PM »
My impression from FWH a couple hundred batches is that as long as the hops are in there for 15 min., there isn't a lot of change after that.  I feel like any flavor or bitterness you get from them kind if plateaus at that point.  No scientific data, just my impression.

Gotchya.  Thanks Denny.  15min. minimum w/ little change after that.

Anyone w/ a different point of view?

Offline erockrph

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2014, 04:03:59 PM »
You don't get much isomerization until you get to the 180ish range, so I think the length of your sparge shouldn't have any bearing on your bitterness from a FWH.

As far as how to calculate the bitterness you extract from FWH, that's a big can of worms. Some believe it is equivalent to about a 20 minute addition. Some believe it is equivalent to a little more than 60 minutes.  Personally, I make a distinction between amount of bitterness vs quality of bitterness. I find FWH to be similar to late hops, in that the calculated bitterness is there, but it seems to be less harsh than an equivalent 60-minute addition.

I've started to move away from FWH in my recipes and do mainly 60-minute additions and/or flameout additions with a hop stand. I find it easier to dial in my hop bitterness vs hop flavor that way.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2014, 04:26:39 PM »
Brewing with Jeff Renner, I learned he leaves them at 170F for an hour. As he was doing a cereal mash that day and it had taken a little while, when the wort was collected, we had lunch, which finished the rest of the hour.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2014, 04:36:40 PM »
I don't FWH anymore, but if I did, they would be in the first wort for about 15-20 minutes before bringing up towards a boil.  Then leave them in, yadda yadda.  As far as IBUs, science has proven that you get more IBUs out of FWH than conventional bittering hop additions, and that the flavor difference is almost imperceptible or perhaps just a tad bit more bitter than a standard bittering addition.  There was an excellent experiment run by Basic Brewing Radio that you should listen to if you haven't where this was all tested and tasted.  The experiment was done alongside the mash hopping technique as well.  The experiment proved also that you get a handful of IBUs (like the equivalent of a 10-minute boil) from mash hopping, and very little flavor and aroma, which basically debunks the benefits of mash hopping, unless perhaps you have a huge amount of hops to waste and don't like the flavor of hops too much.  That being said, I might give it a try sometime since I do have a ton of old hops to waste.
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Offline 69franx

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2014, 05:30:38 PM »
I don't FWH anymore, but if I did, they would be in the first wort for about 15-20 minutes before bringing up towards a boil.  Then leave them in, yadda yadda.  As far as IBUs, science has proven that you get more IBUs out of FWH than conventional bittering hop additions, and that the flavor difference is almost imperceptible or perhaps just a tad bit more bitter than a standard bittering addition.  There was an excellent experiment run by Basic Brewing Radio that you should listen to if you haven't where this was all tested and tasted.  The experiment was done alongside the mash hopping technique as well.  The experiment proved also that you get a handful of IBUs (like the equivalent of a 10-minute boil) from mash hopping, and very little flavor and aroma, which basically debunks the benefits of mash hopping, unless perhaps you have a huge amount of hops to waste and don't like the flavor of hops too much.  That being said, I might give it a try sometime since I do have a ton of old hops to waste.
I'm kind of late to the discussion, but I have a variation on OP's question. When you say that your FWH would be in first runnings 15-20 minutes before "bringing towards a boil" do you mean no heat added and its just a steep? I thought I understood the process to be add hops to first runnings and begin heating immediately towards boil. I'm new to the process and just want to understand
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2014, 05:40:48 PM »

I've started to move away from FWH in my recipes and do mainly 60-minute additions and/or flameout additions with a hop stand. I find it easier to dial in my hop bitterness vs hop flavor that way.

+1.  60 min, ~165-170F hopstand, and dry hop (where applicable) is what I've been doing lately.  +1 to dialing in the bitterness vs flavor.
Jon H.

Offline denny

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Re: How long is a FWH?
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2014, 05:49:37 PM »
I'm kind of late to the discussion, but I have a variation on OP's question. When you say that your FWH would be in first runnings 15-20 minutes before "bringing towards a boil" do you mean no heat added and its just a steep? I thought I understood the process to be add hops to first runnings and begin heating immediately towards boil. I'm new to the process and just want to understand

Mine steep for part of time...during the sparge addition.  Then I lift my kettle onto the burner, start the sparge runoff and light the burner, keeping it very low.  I don't want the temp to get high enough to start isomerizing them.  But steeping the whole time is fine, too.  You don't have to apply heat.
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