[santoch]

I agree.  The entry counts are so low that there should be a separate limit, and the Ninkasi should be beer only.
Maybe have a separate Ninkasi for mead and cider.

[theDarkSide]

I agree.  The entry counts are so low that there should be a separate limit, and the Ninkasi should be beer only.
Maybe have a separate Ninkasi for mead and cider.

As long as they don't change it for this year. 

[prospero]

I had the same exact reaction.... I'll reiterate it here:

I have to be honest somethings gotta change with these BJCP 2015 guidelines if this is going to continually happen.

Lager categories continually average 12-18 entries
IPA/American IPA have been separated and now average about 35 entries a piece (the irony is because the IPA category was getting too large)
Specialty categories average 55-81 entries across the board, with multiple sites seeing 70+.... that's ridiculous...

But alas, I got good feedback, so goal is accomplished for me.

[hopfenundmalz]

I had the same exact reaction.... I'll reiterate it here:

I have to be honest somethings gotta change with these BJCP 2015 guidelines if this is going to continually happen.

Lager categories continually average 12-18 entries
IPA/American IPA have been separated and now average about 35 entries a piece (the irony is because the IPA category was getting too large)
Specialty categories average 55-81 entries across the board, with multiple sites seeing 70+.... that's ridiculous...

But alas, I got good feedback, so goal is accomplished for me.

Read the 2015 guidelines, and you will see that some changes were made to collapse categories to be more like 2008. The NHC specialty was collapsed from 2015 BJCP styles 28,29,31,32, 33,34,27. All going into 26.
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/homebrewassoc/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/17230031/2016-National-Homebrew-Competition-Style-Guidelines.pdf

Next year it might be good for the first round to follow 2015 BJCP, but the fear is always how to get more categories judged in the second round, which is the real bottleneck. So this year the problem became how to judge all of the specialty in the first round. It will be discussed for next year. The competition committee has a tough job. Any suggestions?

[jvoeltz]

I'd like to see Ninkasi made beer-only next year. Then have separate entry limit for mead and cider.

*edited to be less of a magnanimous prick. 

They need to change the name of the award then. The Hymn to Ninkasi clearly mentions honey.

[udubdawg]

I'd like to see Ninkasi made beer-only next year. Then have separate entry limit for mead and cider.

*edited to be less of a magnanimous prick. 

They need to change the name of the award then. The Hymn to Ninkasi clearly mentions honey.

I figured it goes with our history of silly names. Like the issue of Zymurgy dedicated to Homebrewers' Favorite Beers that gets a much different name.   

[narvin]

Frankly if I could do one thing it wouldn't be to even the categories, but to improve the first round judging by getting more experienced people.

Given the popularity and number of entries, that's just not going to happen.  The first round is a crapshoot these days.  If you come to terms with that, you'll be much happier in life 

[toby]

Frankly if I could do one thing it wouldn't be to even the categories, but to improve the first round judging by getting more experienced people.

Given the popularity and number of entries, that's just not going to happen.  The first round is a crapshoot these days.  If you come to terms with that, you'll be much happier in life 

The key would be in changing the selection process for first round sites from a volunteer model to a recruitment model.  IOW, find the areas of the country with more active and higher ranking judges and recruit those areas.  The current model is people ask to host a site.  If they hosted previously, they're given first crack at it next year, regardless of how well the site ran previously.  I'm not sure if the AHA wants to take that on.

But yeah, I've come to terms with the crapshoot aspect.  I'm probably more disappointed that I didn't get to tease anyone I know about how they scored my beer than about not advancing.

[santoch]

Judge pool size is one issue.
Getting the organizers is another.  We've had the same small handful of people pass those roles up here in Seattle for the last 7 or 8 years.  These tend to be the same people who run the local comps.  Frankly, those who have been doing it year after year get burnt out and need someone else to step up.

[dsmitch19]

I had the same exact reaction.... I'll reiterate it here:

I have to be honest somethings gotta change with these BJCP 2015 guidelines if this is going to continually happen.

Lager categories continually average 12-18 entries
IPA/American IPA have been separated and now average about 35 entries a piece (the irony is because the IPA category was getting too large)
Specialty categories average 55-81 entries across the board, with multiple sites seeing 70+.... that's ridiculous...

But alas, I got good feedback, so goal is accomplished for me.

The problem is not with the 2015 BJCP guidelines. The problem is with how a competition uses those guidelines. Competitions are free to group styles into any award categories they want, and if they create some giant specialty category like NHC did this year, that is an issue the competition created, not the BJCP guidelines.

This was a learning experience for everyone since it was the first year NHC used the new guidelines, and I'm sure they'll make some adjustments and improvements next year.

[mchrispen]

I'm probably more disappointed that I didn't get to tease anyone I know about how they scored my beer than about not advancing.

Ha!

[udubdawg]

I've mostly come to terms with the crapshoot nature. Judging Denver did a lot for me there. I had one beer I vehemently defended more than I've ever done for an entry. Other minibos judges wanted it kicked first, but clearly neither understood the style. I pushed it to Finals.
Myself, got a nice scoresheet detailing how my Schwarz was "way too roasty" while the other judge said it was "very smooth but lacking any roast"

...whatev, I'll take my 37 and try again next year.

[brewinhard]

Myself, got a nice scoresheet detailing how my Schwarz was "way too roasty" while the other judge said it was "very smooth but lacking any roast"

...whatev, I'll take my 37 and try again next year.

I have read many of my scoresheets with this on there. One judge picks up astringency and the other says its creamy.

[reverseapachemaster]

I heard more than a few problems with both judging and organization this year. Lots of grumbling about collapsing the styles back into something similar to 2008. I know there are always complaints but it seemed elevated this year.

[udubdawg]

I have to be honest somethings gotta change with these BJCP 2015 guidelines if this is going to continually happen.

I may have given impression I'm have a problem with  current category entry numbers. I don't.

No one seemed to be complaining when two years ago pilsner in SD had 5 entries while IPA had 87.
as Dennis said the problem isn't the 2015 guidelines.

I support separate entry limit for mead and cider because entry numbers are tiny and we've got room for more without changing anything.

Add one category for American Wild, move fruit and spice to Fruit Beer, couple other tiny tweaks...and done.