Author Topic: NHC Scoring and Awards  (Read 3011 times)

Offline tesgüino

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NHC Scoring and Awards
« on: March 26, 2016, 01:20:04 PM »
Looking at the New York results and it's obvious that something should change. Category 26 has 77 entries and Category 27 has 6. Yet they're both competing for three spots to advance.

My numbers are guesstimates, but here's an idea. Say right now AHA awards ribbons to 10% of the entries that make it to the final. They could use that number throughout the competition. In the first round, if there are 77 beers in a category, 8 advance (minimum of one). Same in the finals. If from all the regions, 100 beers from one category make it to the finals, the top 10 are recognized at the conference award ceremony. About the same total number of brewers would make it to the podium, but it would be a fairer representation of their accomplishment.   
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 02:01:46 PM by tesgüino »

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2016, 08:32:12 PM »
I imagine they will simply rearrange the specialty category next year and break out some of the more popular sub cats to their own cat. I give them benefit of the doubt this year because the new release of BJCP Cat 28. I don't think they had concrete evidence to base a decision on in that regard. If they did American Wild as its own cat, and only got 5 entries per region, we'd be talking about that instead.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2016, 08:35:36 PM »
Keep in mind, that if you are looking at mead/cider categories, they historically have much lower numbers going on compared to the beer categories.  I assume there are just less people making mead/cider and/or entering with those.

Offline udubdawg

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2016, 10:01:13 PM »
4 trad meads in Seattle. But ya know what? - more than one BEER category failed to advance 3 last year. Where does it end; do we decide 4 entries is not enough but 7 is?  11, but not 10?

The categories have been available for months; anyone not expecting a huge Specialty Category was simply not paying attention. This is one of a very small handful of comps that is about access to Finals, accolades for winners, and not about feedback. I enter where I think I have the best chance to win. So far, lager entry numbers are up; perhaps others are doing the same.

Frankly if I could do one thing it wouldn't be to even the categories, but to improve the first round judging by getting more experienced people.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2016, 10:11:16 PM »
Second round judging is difficult as it is.
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Offline santoch

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2016, 11:59:50 PM »
4 trad meads in Seattle. But ya know what? - more than one BEER category failed to advance 3 last year. Where does it end; do we decide 4 entries is not enough but 7 is?  11, but not 10?

The categories have been available for months; anyone not expecting a huge Specialty Category was simply not paying attention. This is one of a very small handful of comps that is about access to Finals, accolades for winners, and not about feedback. I enter where I think I have the best chance to win. So far, lager entry numbers are up; perhaps others are doing the same.

Frankly if I could do one thing it wouldn't be to even the categories, but to improve the first round judging by getting more experienced people.

FWIW, Randy Scorby and I (both GM II/Mead judges) judged the Traditional (27) and Specialty Mead (29) categories together last Friday afternoon in Seattle early before moving on to other categories. We were the only 2 Mead judges there on Friday with no mead entries.

Even though there were very few entries, we were quite happy that they were all very good/excellent.  I looked at the winners lists of those two categories.  I am not surprised in the least that the winners -- Tim Leber (advanced 3 meads), Brian Searfass (advanced a beer and a mead) and Rodney Kibzey (the Long Shot 2 Timer) advanced 1.  I personally know all 3 of them and know that all 3 have been to the 2nd round more than once before.  (I don't know Avi Shayevitz or his brewing partners, but I know for certain that their mead that came in 2nd was excellent.)

So, I guess my point is, you will still have your work cut out for you thinking you'll nose in on these just because there weren't many entries.  There was some outstanding competition in that small group.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2016, 02:13:44 AM »
4 trad meads in Seattle. But ya know what? - more than one BEER category failed to advance 3 last year. Where does it end; do we decide 4 entries is not enough but 7 is?  11, but not 10?

The categories have been available for months; anyone not expecting a huge Specialty Category was simply not paying attention. This is one of a very small handful of comps that is about access to Finals, accolades for winners, and not about feedback. I enter where I think I have the best chance to win. So far, lager entry numbers are up; perhaps others are doing the same.

Frankly if I could do one thing it wouldn't be to even the categories, but to improve the first round judging by getting more experienced people.

FWIW, Randy Scorby and I (both GM II/Mead judges) judged the Traditional (27) and Specialty Mead (29) categories together last Friday afternoon in Seattle early before moving on to other categories. We were the only 2 Mead judges there on Friday with no mead entries.

Even though there were very few entries, we were quite happy that they were all very good/excellent.  I looked at the winners lists of those two categories.  I am not surprised in the least that the winners -- Tim Leber (advanced 3 meads), Brian Searfass (advanced a beer and a mead) and Rodney Kibzey (the Long Shot 2 Timer) advanced 1.  I personally know all 3 of them and know that all 3 have been to the 2nd round more than once before.  (I don't know Avi Shayevitz or his brewing partners, but I know for certain that their mead that came in 2nd was excellent.)

So, I guess my point is, you will still have your work cut out for you thinking you'll nose in on these just because there weren't many entries.  There was some outstanding competition in that small group.
Rodney kibzey was Mead Maker of the Year 2010 too.
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Offline toby

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2016, 04:01:53 PM »
Looking at the New York results and it's obvious that something should change. Category 26 has 77 entries and Category 27 has 6. Yet they're both competing for three spots to advance.

That's going to be the nature of doing a first round where they try and guess how many entries each category is going to have based on aggregate numbers from previous years.  There are going to be variances in sites where certain categories get over-represented and others get under-represented in certain regions.  Also, they're not necessarily going to be the same year to year (you might have a site that had only 4 ciders last year get 16 this year since people thought they could take advantage of that).  However, the advancement is still based on having a minimum score, so to advance, you still need to brew a Very Good example of the style.  And as pointed out, some of those styles that get few entries are styles brewed by stiff competitors in the first place.

Quote
My numbers are guesstimates, but here's an idea. Say right now AHA awards ribbons to 10% of the entries that make it to the final. They could use that number throughout the competition. In the first round, if there are 77 beers in a category, 8 advance (minimum of one). Same in the finals. If from all the regions, 100 beers from one category make it to the finals, the top 10 are recognized at the conference award ceremony. About the same total number of brewers would make it to the podium, but it would be a fairer representation of their accomplishment.

That's not going to happen for a lot of logistical reasons.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2016, 11:00:44 PM »
Looking at the New York results and it's obvious that something should change. Category 26 has 77 entries and Category 27 has 6. Yet they're both competing for three spots to advance.

That's going to be the nature of doing a first round where they try and guess how many entries each category is going to have based on aggregate numbers from previous years.  There are going to be variances in sites where certain categories get over-represented and others get under-represented in certain regions.  Also, they're not necessarily going to be the same year to year (you might have a site that had only 4 ciders last year get 16 this year since people thought they could take advantage of that).  However, the advancement is still based on having a minimum score, so to advance, you still need to brew a Very Good example of the style.  And as pointed out, some of those styles that get few entries are styles brewed by stiff competitors in the first place.

Exactly.  When I first started entering years ago, I tried this approach with no luck.  Every time I brewed for a smaller entry category it would be slammed the following year, or the judging site would be heavy with entries in that category. Now I just brew what I enjoy drinking and competing with. It really is luck of the draw, so to speak.

Offline ethinson

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2016, 06:17:53 PM »

Exactly.  When I first started entering years ago, I tried this approach with no luck.  Every time I brewed for a smaller entry category it would be slammed the following year, or the judging site would be heavy with entries in that category. Now I just brew what I enjoy drinking and competing with. It really is luck of the draw, so to speak.

This has happened to me more times that I can count.  Happened again this year too.  I decided to brew a Cal Common to take advantage of my cold spare bedroom in December and January, but I'd be lying if I wasn't also looking at Amber Hybrid in Seattle with only 6 entries.  Submit my Cal Common... this year 21 entries in Amber Hybrid.  I'd convinced myself that I was almost guaranteed to medal... NOPE.  Ah well.. such is life.

Doesn't help that it was my lowest scoring entry.  Either a bad bottle or storage just not nice to it.  Comments about oxidation and a possible infection.  Try and try again...
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Offline theDarkSide

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2016, 06:59:28 PM »
I wonder if the Austin region will get a lot of Standard Cider entries this year...only one last year.
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Offline toby

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2016, 03:34:05 PM »
I wonder if the Austin region will get a lot of Standard Cider entries this year...only one last year.

They were who I was thinking of when I said that.  I expect they will.  I'll find out in a couple days.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2016, 03:54:35 PM »
I wonder if the Austin region will get a lot of Standard Cider entries this year...only one last year.

Yup.  Bet they will have more.

Offline mbbransc

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2016, 12:33:28 PM »
8 standard and 7 specialty ciders in Austin.

Traditional Mead in SEA has been the lowest entered so far (4) and Specialty in NYC has the most (77). 

With 7 centers reporting, the averages for meads and ciders looks like this:

Cat 27 - 6.3 entries
Cat 28 - 12.9 entries
Cat 29 - 9.3 entries
Cat 30 - 9.0 entries
Cat 31 - 10.0 entries

Offline udubdawg

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Re: NHC Scoring and Awards
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2016, 02:01:00 PM »
I'd like to see Ninkasi made beer-only next year. Then have separate entry limit for mead and cider.

*edited to be less of a magnanimous prick.  ;D
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 02:09:52 PM by udubdawg »