Author Topic: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout  (Read 1463 times)

Offline Phil_M

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Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« on: August 30, 2016, 10:59:25 AM »
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.nl/2013/11/lets-brew-wednesday-1923-courage-stout.html

Has anyone brewed this recipe?

I'm thinking about brewing this for Thanksgiving/Christmas, serving from a gravity dispense cask. I plan on a "test" brew in the near future, both to test out the recipe and my isinglass preparation.

I plan on following the recipe pretty closely.

36.4% Malting Co. of Ireland Stout Malt
14.4% Fawcett Optic Malt
14.4% Simpson's Golden Promise Malt
7.6%   Briess Pale Ale Malt
8.4%   Bairds Chocolate Malt (see note)
5.8%   Crisp English Brown Malt
6.3%   Lyle's Golden Syrup
6.6%   Lyle's Golden Syrup/Blackstrap blended to make black invert

29 IBU of Fuggles @ 90 minutes
10 IBU of CLuster @ 30 minutes
0.25g/L of Fuggles in the cask

The biggest hangup I have in this recipe is the black malt. Kristen England specifically mentions not using black patent malt, and frankly black patent seems to be the only black malt available. Also, this needs to be an approachable beer, and while I don't think the tannins or anything from the roasted malt husks will be a problem I'm curious what others think. Should I just use chocolate malt like I've laid out? Or just go with black patent malt? Blend the two? Just can the both of them and use roast barley?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 11:04:06 AM by Phil_M »
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline dls5492

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2016, 12:33:50 PM »
I haven't brewed that one. I have brewed several from his book with success using black patent. Have you tried contacting Mr. Pattinson? He has been prompt when I have contacted him with questions.
Hope this helps.
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Offline stpug

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2016, 02:45:19 PM »
Looks like a plan.  I think a UK dark chocolate or roasted barley are optimal choices - I would personally use the roasted barley.  Black patent is to porter as roasted barley is to stout, generally speaking.  In regards to the black patent, I cannot see anywhere on that page where it's specifically mentioned to NOT use black patent; granted, I wouldn't, but I just don't see it mentioned.

What kind of yeast are you shooting for? 1469 as mentioned by Kristen?

Offline kramerog

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2016, 02:50:22 PM »
I thought that black malt and black patent malt were the same.  In any case, before black patent malt there was no black malt.

Offline Stevie

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2016, 02:54:26 PM »
I thought that black malt and black patent malt were the same.  In any case, before black patent malt there was no black malt.
There was a BeerSmith or Basic Brewing episode that discussed this. I don't remember the difference.

I love black patent. It's all about pH management. It's fun hearing people complain about how black patent is acrid or ashy then hand them a beer made with 5%+ patent.

Offline kramerog

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2016, 02:56:32 PM »
Ron's use of black malt refers to black patent malt as the black malt in 1817 was black patent malt, IIRC:

"This beer's grist is a classic London combination of pale, brown and black malts. A combination used from the invention of black malt in 1817 until, well, they stopped brewing Porter and Stout in London."

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2016, 02:58:56 PM »
Kristen specifies "Make sure it isn't dehusked" in reference to the black malt. I took that to mean a different malt from Patent, which is dehusked. (hence why it's developer received a patent.

I don't know that roast barley would be appropriate. Yes, it's normal in stouts...Irish and American ones. This recipe falls more into the old "stout is a stronger porter" camp. (Note that in Ron's chart that Courage's porter as an OG of 1.032, the stout 1.043) So on that note, perhaps black/black patent malt is the way to go.

Thinking 1469, but not sure yet. Is it top cropping? Haven't decided yet if I want to use a top or bottom cropping strain...

Might be nice to add to the fun and do an open fermentation, then rack straight to the cask...but that's probably too many new variables this late in the game.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline santoch

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2016, 03:05:03 PM »
Kristen specifies "Make sure it isn't dehusked" in reference to the black malt. I took that to mean a different malt from Patent, which is dehusked. (hence why it's developer received a patent.

You are confusing Black Patent with Carafa Special malt.  Black Patent still has its husk while Carafa special malt is de-husked.  The "Patent" comes from the patented process that allowed them to create such a dark malt without burning the heck out of it.  That patent has long since expired, so everyone can make that malt.  And yes, Black Malt is the same as Black Patent Malt.

HTH-

edit -- "debittered" black malt is de-husked.  Carafa is a brand of de-bittered malt.
Here's a link to an article about the patent itself
https://faithfulreaders.com/2012/05/06/black-patent-malt-and-the-evolution-of-porter/
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 03:11:18 PM by santoch »
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Offline Stevie

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2016, 03:06:52 PM »
Black patent is not dehusked

Offline kramerog

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2016, 03:11:54 PM »
In BYO in 2007, Kristen England used black patent malt and black malt interchangeably. 
http://byo.com/malt/item/155-back-in-black-the-truth-about-black-patent-malt.  I believe that dehusked black malts did not exist or had not become popular in 2007.

The patent in black patent malt refers to the patent on the roaster used to make black patent malt.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2016, 03:12:31 PM »
Black Malt is the same as Black Patent Malt.


Yep
Jon H.

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2016, 03:23:46 PM »
Kristen specifies "Make sure it isn't dehusked" in reference to the black malt. I took that to mean a different malt from Patent, which is dehusked. (hence why it's developer received a patent.

You are confusing Black Patent with Carafa Special malt.  Black Patent still has its husk while Carafa special malt is de-husked.  The "Patent" comes from the patented process that allowed them to create such a dark malt without burning the heck out of it.  That patent has long since expired, so everyone can make that malt.  And yes, Black Malt is the same as Black Patent Malt.

HTH-

edit -- "debittered" black malt is de-husked.  Carafa is a brand of de-bittered malt.
Here's a link to an article about the patent itself
https://faithfulreaders.com/2012/05/06/black-patent-malt-and-the-evolution-of-porter/

Ah! That cleared things up, thanks. Learned something new, "patent" and "debittered" are not the same, I thought they were.

Black patent it is then.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline Stevie

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2016, 03:27:43 PM »
Take care to keep your ph in the high 5.4s and you will not be disappointed.

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2016, 03:30:30 PM »
5.40 is typically where I aim to mash at, and yes I'll likely aim for 5.48. I only have a crappy $15 pH meter, so often I just shoot for 5.4 in Bru'n Water and don't even bother to measure. Hasn't failed me yet.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Shut up about Barclay Perkins 1923 Courage Stout
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2016, 03:32:06 PM »
5.5-5.6pH is even better for porter and stout IMO.
Jon H.