[The Beerery]

Do you just run the dark malts through the mill with the rest of it?  No extra crushing?

Me personally? Yes. In all of the brewing literature I have ever read, I have never seen a special treatment for brewing a dark beer over a light beer, or one malted grain over another. It all gets crushed, mashed, boiled, fermented and drank the same

[natebrews]

I think Guinness does the 'grind it into flour' thing with their roast barley.  I think ( but probably wrong) it is just an efficiency thing, using more at a courser crush would provide the same effect. 

[The Beerery]

I think Guinness does the 'grind it into flour' thing with their roast barley.  I think ( but probably wrong) it is just an efficiency thing, using more at a courser crush would provide the same effect.

I know its in the Jamil book, and Guinness may I can't speak to why for sure though. For all we know they may have a hammer mill and mill all the grains that way.

[Phil_M]

I think Guinness does the 'grind it into flour' thing with their roast barley.  I think ( but probably wrong) it is just an efficiency thing, using more at a courser crush would provide the same effect.

I know its in the Jamil book, and Guinness may I can't speak to why for sure though. For all we know they may have a hammer mill and mill all the grains that way.

Guinness is one of the non-German macrobeers that I think may be low oxygen. It's just got such a different malt flavor. The Foreign Extra has this flavor even more than the regular Draught Guinness. It's not a roasty flavor, more like a dark caramel thing.

[The Beerery]

I think Guinness does the 'grind it into flour' thing with their roast barley.  I think ( but probably wrong) it is just an efficiency thing, using more at a courser crush would provide the same effect.

I know its in the Jamil book, and Guinness may I can't speak to why for sure though. For all we know they may have a hammer mill and mill all the grains that way.

Guinness is one of the non-German macrobeers that I think may be low oxygen. It's just got such a different malt flavor. The Foreign Extra has this flavor even more than the regular Draught Guinness. It's not a roasty flavor, more like a dark caramel thing.

You are correct they are a low oxygen brewhouse.

[lupulus]

I have tried crushed and milled at the beginning of the mash, end of the mash, and crushed plus coffe-like process, then added at the end of the boil.

There is definitely a difference when using no lodo and adding them at the end of the mash or end of the boil vs at the beginning of the mash.

When I combined lodo with milled/ beginning of the mash, beer turned out similar to when adding them at the end of the mash (that is, the oxidation went away)

The advantage of adding them at the beginning of the mash is that you can account for the pH drop and add less acid. When adding at the end of the mash after mashing at 5.3-5.2, pH can get into the high 4s, and beer pH at or a bit below 4.0. Beer is ok but not great, too acidic.

Just did a porter and a dry stout with lodo and grains mashed together and they both turned out excellent, with beer pH around 4.3-4.4.

I am personally convinced that milled is the same as crushed with crushed just getting better efficiency. I am dialed in now with milled, so will just spend the extra cents and mill them together.

As a side comment, many German textbooks recommend a protein rest for dark base malts (ie Munich type) because of the higher protein content they normally have, but this depends on the malster. The last few years, Weyermann Munich has been similar or 0.5% protein higher vs pils, so skipping protein rest should be ok.

[brewinhard]

I've brewed 5 LODO beers now (3 helles, 1 dry stout, 1 weissbier).   It didn't require major changes as some folks seem to fear.  I even mixed up a batch of anti-oxin for my last batch (SMB, tannins, and ascorbic acid) and used it.   It's not that hard.    I don't understand all the fear and resistance.  Learning and trying something new is exciting and fun! 

Agreed 100%. Now to share the process with my local brewing buddies. They are going to eat it up.

[dilluh98]

So what's the rub, science-wise, for mashing dark beers at 5.2? This might be my largest hesitation on the low oxygen front thus far. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to try it on my next oatmeal stout or brown ale but I'd just like to hear the justification. Am I hurting something by mashing at 5.4-5.6 using low oxygen? Or is it that there's just no need for a higher mash pH because there's no acrid taste to "hide" with bicarbonate additions?

[HoosierBrew]

So what's the rub, science-wise, for mashing dark beers at 5.2? This might be my largest hesitation on the low oxygen front thus far. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to try it on my next oatmeal stout or brown ale but I'd just like to hear the justification. Am I hurting something by mashing at 5.4-5.6 using low oxygen? Or is it that there's just no need for a higher mash pH because there's no acrid taste to "hide" with bicarbonate additions?

Yeah, that's my hurdle to clear, too. I normally mash porter and stout @ 5.6, to soften the acrid. Have loved the results. But the curiosity has me. I think the thing for me to do is to try a 1 or 2 gallon batch (low O2) @ 5.2 to see if I like the character, and if so, to gauge if the roast amounts need to be adjusted.

[dilluh98]

So what's the rub, science-wise, for mashing dark beers at 5.2? This might be my largest hesitation on the low oxygen front thus far. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to try it on my next oatmeal stout or brown ale but I'd just like to hear the justification. Am I hurting something by mashing at 5.4-5.6 using low oxygen? Or is it that there's just no need for a higher mash pH because there's no acrid taste to "hide" with bicarbonate additions?

Yeah, that's my hurdle to clear, too. I normally mash porter and stout @ 5.6, to soften the acrid. Have loved the results. But the curiosity has me. I think the thing for me to do is to try a 1 or 2 gallon batch (low O2) @ 5.2 to see if I like the character, and if so, to gauge if the roast amounts need to be adjusted.

The recent low oxygen mild I brewed had 4% chocolate malt in it. Early sampling of the beer indicates I could easily cut that in half. That one was mashed at 5.4, FWIW.

[HoosierBrew]

So what's the rub, science-wise, for mashing dark beers at 5.2? This might be my largest hesitation on the low oxygen front thus far. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to try it on my next oatmeal stout or brown ale but I'd just like to hear the justification. Am I hurting something by mashing at 5.4-5.6 using low oxygen? Or is it that there's just no need for a higher mash pH because there's no acrid taste to "hide" with bicarbonate additions?

Yeah, that's my hurdle to clear, too. I normally mash porter and stout @ 5.6, to soften the acrid. Have loved the results. But the curiosity has me. I think the thing for me to do is to try a 1 or 2 gallon batch (low O2) @ 5.2 to see if I like the character, and if so, to gauge if the roast amounts need to be adjusted.

The recent low oxygen mild I brewed had 4% chocolate malt in it. Early sampling of the beer indicates I could easily cut that in half. That one was mashed at 5.4, FWIW.

That's good info. Thanks. I'm curious to see how a true stout fares - in other words, a beer where you want the nice high roast level, unlike a mild where it is just a slight accent.

[The Beerery]

I guess there is no rub per say. Kunze is my guidance when it comes to pretty much everything. His book encompasses every aspect of brewing, and in no place in his book, does he make special amends for a mash pH. He states 5.2 and lists paragraph after paragraph supporting it, I feel if he was going to say something about beer styles needing a different pH it would be there. So with that said, I mash at 5.2, doesn't matter what it is, thats what I mash it. From my experience in low oxygen brewing I have never had any of these beers( ~250) turn out the least bit harsh, infact its totally the opposite.

I found when mashing beers higher say 5.5, it came across as fuller on the palate and kind of blah. When I lowered the pH I got better mash eff%, better flavor, and better attenuation. But as always YMMV, FWIW, IME, etc.

[dilluh98]

But as always YMMV, FWIW, IME, etc.

This should be your tag line around here. 

[Big Monk]

I guess there is no rub per say. Kunze is my guidance when it comes to pretty much everything. His book encompasses every aspect of brewing, and in no place in his book, does he make special amends for a mash pH. He states 5.2 and lists paragraph after paragraph supporting it, I feel if he was going to say something about beer styles needing a different pH it would be there. So with that said, I mash at 5.2, doesn't matter what it is, thats what I mash it. From my experience in low oxygen brewing I have never had any of these beers( ~250) turn out the least bit harsh, infact its totally the opposite.

I found when mashing beers higher say 5.5, it came across as fuller on the palate and kind of blah. When I lowered the pH I got better mash eff%, better flavor, and better attenuation. But as always YMMV, FWIW, IME, etc.

To expand just slightly on Bryan's point: you may need to (if using Low Oxygen will definitely need to) re-evaluate the percentage of roasted grains in your recipes if you choose to go with the lower pH. There are a lot of benefits to mashing at a lower pH if you choose to do so and it may require you to revisit whether you need large percentages of roasted grains.

I personally have used no more than 8% roasted grains in any big, roasty RIS I've brewed because I like less roast.

The claim could always be made that if you are getting acrid flavors from mashing lower that maybe you are using too much roast. That's just my opinion and one I came up with from trying to figure out why Stouts and porters are such an outlier, pH wise. Food for thought is all...

[HoosierBrew]

I guess there is no rub per say. Kunze is my guidance when it comes to pretty much everything. His book encompasses every aspect of brewing, and in no place in his book, does he make special amends for a mash pH. He states 5.2 and lists paragraph after paragraph supporting it, I feel if he was going to say something about beer styles needing a different pH it would be there. So with that said, I mash at 5.2, doesn't matter what it is, thats what I mash it. From my experience in low oxygen brewing I have never had any of these beers( ~250) turn out the least bit harsh, infact its totally the opposite.

I found when mashing beers higher say 5.5, it came across as fuller on the palate and kind of blah. When I lowered the pH I got better mash eff%, better flavor, and better attenuation. But as always YMMV, FWIW, IME, etc.

As for 5.2 pH, I will say that the last 3 came out just stellar with it using your methods. Dunkel in particular was one where I typically mashed at 5.35 -5.4.