[denny]

We all want to drink excellent beer.  I was extremely resistant to the "Shaken not stirred" process, mostly because I was set in my ways.  I think this is a good conversation, and these are good questions, aside from the personal attacks.

I gotta be honest, I was resistant to Mark's delivery at first too, which made it tough to see through to his methods. But he was right and was a wealth of good knowledge, and I use SNS on all my ales. I really think the topic of lowering O2 (hell, any topic) merits being able to share info and debate it in a good way.

The reason I finally decided to try SNS was because ultimately it was easier and less work.  That's not what LODO looks like to me.  It's not because I'm stuck in my ways, it's because making excellent beer is only a part of the reason I brew.

[texaswine]

If spunding makes the biggest difference, why are people seeing positive results without it,

This statement doesn't really makes sense. Spunding makes a big difference, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing that makes a difference. I don't spund, yet I'm seeing great results. But my shelf life isn't going to be 6 months either.

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[narvin]

We all want to drink excellent beer.  I was extremely resistant to the "Shaken not stirred" process, mostly because I was set in my ways.  I think this is a good conversation, and these are good questions, aside from the personal attacks.

I gotta be honest, I was resistant to Mark's delivery at first too, which made it tough to see through to his methods. But he was right and was a wealth of good knowledge, and I use SNS on all my ales. I really think the topic of lowering O2 (hell, any topic) merits being able to share info and debate it in a good way.

The reason I finally decided to try SNS was because ultimately it was easier and less work.  That's not what LODO looks like to me.  It's not because I'm stuck in my ways, it's because making excellent beer is only a part of the reason I brew.

That's a fair critique.  But adjusting water with salts and acids or making starters in the first place was a step away from easy.  Pitching at high krauaen was actuallly less easy for me, since chilling and decanting gave me a multiple day window to brew.

[pkrone]

I'm constantly amused at what people perceive as difficult and then allow these perceptions to become dogmatic opinions. 

Must be a "right brain/left brain" thing.    I'm a right brainer and am now curious if more lefties like me have been willing to try the LoDo thing.   

[Big Monk]

any thoughts on Charles Bamforths comments re: meta usage?

I received a response to an inquiry I made to Dr. Bamforth and I am waiting for a follow up response for some more detailed clarification, but it turns out that Dr. Bamforth doesn't oppose the use of sulfites in the mash, he just has industry OE that under certain circumstances, and too large of a dose, that they can be an issue.

He also stated that as a proviso to this experience, it was worth noting that the high sulfate content of the Burton water was likely a contributor as well.

More to follow...

[HoosierBrew]

any thoughts on Charles Bamforths comments re: meta usage?

I received a response to an inquiry I made to Dr. Bamforth and I am waiting for a follow up response for some more detailed clarification, but it turns out that Dr. Bamforth doesn't oppose the use of sulfites in the mash, he just has industry OE that under certain circumstances, and too large of a dose, that they can be an issue.

He also stated that as a proviso to this experience, it was worth noting that the high sulfate content of the Burton water was likely a contributor as well.

More to follow...

Very interesting. I look forward to the rest. Thanks, Derek.

[texaswine]

any thoughts on Charles Bamforths comments re: meta usage?

I received a response to an inquiry I made to Dr. Bamforth and I am waiting for a follow up response for some more detailed clarification, but it turns out that Dr. Bamforth doesn't oppose the use of sulfites in the mash, he just has industry OE that under certain circumstances, and too large of a dose, that they can be an issue.

He also stated that as a proviso to this experience, it was worth noting that the high sulfate content of the Burton water was likely a contributor as well.

More to follow...

Thanks for getting to the bottom of this. Sounds like it's exactly as suspected, that the quote in question didn't reveal the full story.

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[Big Monk]

any thoughts on Charles Bamforths comments re: meta usage?

I received a response to an inquiry I made to Dr. Bamforth and I am waiting for a follow up response for some more detailed clarification, but it turns out that Dr. Bamforth doesn't oppose the use of sulfites in the mash, he just has industry OE that under certain circumstances, and too large of a dose, that they can be an issue.

He also stated that as a proviso to this experience, it was worth noting that the high sulfate content of the Burton water was likely a contributor as well.

More to follow...

Thanks for getting to the bottom of this. Sounds like it's exactly as suspected, that the quote in question didn't reveal the full story.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

To be fair, I asked my own question and got an answer. I don't want to imply anything negative about Brulosophy. I may have asked my question with a more probing focus given what I know about the process.

Furthermore it doesn't seem, given Marshall's assessment and the assessment of those with him who subsequently tasted the samples, that the sulfur issue was perceived as a huge deal. It may have affected perception of the beer in the main experiment, but given the extract and attenuation differences were also present, the sulfur perceived by Jake becomes less of a smoking gun.

It is, on the other hand, a topic of interest for others having sulfur issues using the method. I'm waiting on a follow up from Dr. Bamforth and then I'm going to do a write up at the blog that talks about the relationship between sulfite/Sulfate/sulfide in the hopes it can help shed some light on the issue.

[denny]

We all want to drink excellent beer.  I was extremely resistant to the "Shaken not stirred" process, mostly because I was set in my ways.  I think this is a good conversation, and these are good questions, aside from the personal attacks.

I gotta be honest, I was resistant to Mark's delivery at first too, which made it tough to see through to his methods. But he was right and was a wealth of good knowledge, and I use SNS on all my ales. I really think the topic of lowering O2 (hell, any topic) merits being able to share info and debate it in a good way.

The reason I finally decided to try SNS was because ultimately it was easier and less work.  That's not what LODO looks like to me.  It's not because I'm stuck in my ways, it's because making excellent beer is only a part of the reason I brew.

That's a fair critique.  But adjusting water with salts and acids or making starters in the first place was a step away from easy.  Pitching at high krauaen was actuallly less easy for me, since chilling and decanting gave me a multiple day window to brew.

Sure, making starters is more work than not, but to me a SNS starter is a reasonably small amount if effort.  I don't worry about pitching at high krausen.  I don't do any water adjustment other than a tsp. of gypsum for the pale ales and IPAs that make up 90% of what I brew.  I do a bit for other styles. 

[denny]

I'm constantly amused at what people perceive as difficult and then allow these perceptions to become dogmatic opinions. 

Must be a "right brain/left brain" thing.    I'm a right brainer and am now curious if more lefties like me have been willing to try the LoDo thing.   

Everybody gets to make the decision for themselves.  To me, I'm constant.y amazed at some of the things people do that seem needless to me.

[texaswine]

any thoughts on Charles Bamforths comments re: meta usage?

I received a response to an inquiry I made to Dr. Bamforth and I am waiting for a follow up response for some more detailed clarification, but it turns out that Dr. Bamforth doesn't oppose the use of sulfites in the mash, he just has industry OE that under certain circumstances, and too large of a dose, that they can be an issue.

He also stated that as a proviso to this experience, it was worth noting that the high sulfate content of the Burton water was likely a contributor as well.

More to follow...

Thanks for getting to the bottom of this. Sounds like it's exactly as suspected, that the quote in question didn't reveal the full story.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

To be fair, I asked my own question and got an answer. I don't want to imply anything negative about Brulosophy. I may have asked my question with a more probing focus given what I know about the process.

Furthermore it doesn't seem, given Marshall's assessment and the assessment of those with him who subsequently tasted the samples, that the sulfur issue was perceived as a huge deal. It may have affected perception of the beer in the main experiment, but given the extract and attenuation differences were also present, the sulfur perceived by Jake becomes less of a smoking gun.

It is, on the other hand, a topic of interest for others having sulfur issues using the method. I'm waiting on a follow up from Dr. Bamforth and then I'm going to do a write up at the blog that talks about the relationship between sulfite/Sulfate/sulfide in the hopes it can help shed some light on the issue.

Oh I'm with you in that I wasn't trying to imply anything negative about Brulosophy. I was simply trying to convey the quote didn't give us the full picture. Glad they asked the question to begin with. It just needs a little more fleshing out and some more context given.

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[Joe T]

I'm brewing another lodo pilsner today. Same recipe as the last one. Well I finally hit all my numbers and I got a respectable 76% efficiency. The only difference from my low efficiency batches is this one was crushed dry.
So that raises the question: how important is grain conditioning to the whole lodo process?
I'm currently enjoying a fresh pilsner from my last batch, spunded just 3 days ago. It's still cloudy and has a bit of a yeast bite but dang that's tasty! Definitely has that lodo flavor!

[The Beerery]

I would say it's NOT if you can get a great crush with husks intact. It's just an easy way to make that happen if you boil it down. 


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[Joe T]

I would say it's NOT if you can get a great crush with husks intact. It's just an easy way to make that happen if you boil it down. 


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Got it thanks.
I've been double crushing for years now, coarse then fine, because it gives me a really fine crush and keeps the husks intact. And because my old mill makes it both easy and necessary to do.

[Bilsch]

To condition or not is a very interesting topic. I gave it up a while back because I got a better result using a three roll mill with a wider gap (.050) but more importantly running the mill slowly ~60 rpm. I'm my opinion speed is what shreds the husk. Conditioning's only purpose is to do less damage to the husk and if you can get that without adding water to your grain and starting the oxidation process, albiet slowly, so much the better.