Author Topic: Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.  (Read 864 times)

Offline trapae

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Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.
« on: May 11, 2018, 04:49:39 AM »
Round two on trying to adjust my water and get the correct mash pH. It seems like I’ve got something wrong especially with the amount of acid I need to add?
Doing a wit beer:  2row 5lb4oz, white wheat 4lb4oz, flaked oats 1lb.
Existing water:    ca56, mg9, na11, sulfate15, cl2, bicarbonate204, caco2-168,
Mashing profile:  ca80, mg17, na11, sulfate46, cl44— after additions of some calcium chloride and some Epson salts.

Shooting for a mash pH of 5.3?
I have both lactic acid 88% as well as phosphoric acid 10%. I chose to use phosphoric acid in the program (because I read about taste contributions for lactic acid?) but it is saying that I need to add 41.4 ML of phosphoric acid to the sparge and 79.5 ML phosphoric acid to the mash.

 I’ve never done this before but those seem extremely large contributions of acid? Am I doing something wrong?

 Thanks in advance for any help/advice.
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2018, 11:23:00 AM »
Round two on trying to adjust my water and get the correct mash pH. It seems like I’ve got something wrong especially with the amount of acid I need to add?
Doing a wit beer:  2row 5lb4oz, white wheat 4lb4oz, flaked oats 1lb.
Existing water:    ca56, mg9, na11, sulfate15, cl2, bicarbonate204, caco2-168,
Mashing profile:  ca80, mg17, na11, sulfate46, cl44— after additions of some calcium chloride and some Epson salts.

Shooting for a mash pH of 5.3?
I have both lactic acid 88% as well as phosphoric acid 10%. I chose to use phosphoric acid in the program (because I read about taste contributions for lactic acid?) but it is saying that I need to add 41.4 ML of phosphoric acid to the sparge and 79.5 ML phosphoric acid to the mash.

 I’ve never done this before but those seem extremely large contributions of acid? Am I doing something wrong?

 Thanks in advance for any help/advice.

How big is the batch (volume)?
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2018, 11:57:22 AM »
For a wit, I would definitely prefer the lactic acid over the phosphoric. The flavor from lactic acid is actually a good thing...you have heard of a beer style: berliner weisse??

Fortunately for the alkalinity in that water, the lactic acid dosage isn't ridiculously high and its not quite to the point where lactic acid would have much, if any, flavor impact. 1ml per gallon 88% lactic is no problem at all. Its around 1.5 ml/gal that the 88% lactic will definitely have flavor impacts.
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Offline HydraulicSammich

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Re: Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2018, 12:59:03 PM »
You can also get 85% food grade phosphoric acid, in large quantities for cheap at Duda Diesel.
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Offline trapae

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Re: Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2018, 01:37:23 PM »
 Mash water volume 5.3 gallons, Sparge water volume 4 gallons, post boil volume 6.5 gallons.
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Offline trapae

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Re: Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2018, 01:39:19 PM »
 OK, so I’m using the program correctly? That just seems  like a large amount of acid addition. , I guess it’s because I chose to buy the 10% on accident.
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Offline narcout

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Re: Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2018, 05:20:24 PM »
OK, so I’m using the program correctly? That just seems  like a large amount of acid addition. , I guess it’s because I chose to buy the 10% on accident.

I ran your numbers, and you are using the program correctly (I got the same results).

Your water is high in alkalinity and your grist is all light colored, low-acidity grains.

If you want to cut back on the acid, you could dilute your source water with RO or distilled. 
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Offline trapae

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Re: Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2018, 06:16:52 PM »
Great,  thanks so much. Having not used bru’n much, confirmation that I’m doing things correctly really helps. Appreciate it.
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2018, 12:05:13 PM »
I have a follow on question relating to this thread: When lowering pH with lactic acid, bicarbonate also lowers sometimes into negative territory. Is that an issue?


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Offline Robert

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Re: Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2018, 03:03:28 PM »
I have a follow on question relating to this thread: When lowering pH with lactic acid, bicarbonate also lowers sometimes into negative territory. Is that an issue?


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No, it's just what you're after.  There's a lot of "as if" going on here.  True, you can't have less than none of actual carbonate ions in the water, but even with RO with no real bicarbonate, there will be a number there.  Remember the total alkalinity (or acidity) of the system is expressed as "equivalent of CaCO3."  So once you've added acid to neutralize any alkalinity in the water, then more to counter the buffering capacity of a pale grist, to get the mash pH right, that "as if" number will often be negative.  (I hope I've expressed this correctly.  I'm no water genius, but I'm learning!)  :)
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2018, 03:38:47 PM »
Even when using water with zero bicarbonate or alkalinity, a pale grist will need another acid source to bring the wort pH into a desirably low range.

That negative bicarbonate value represents that excess acid that the wort needs to bring the pH down properly. Its okay.
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2018, 03:45:12 PM »
Thanks guys!  That helps a lot!


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Offline drewer02

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Re: Bru’n water 2nd attempt help. Ph and acid additions.
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2018, 04:22:49 AM »
Learned from some good tips on here. Hope you'll get good results.