[dannyjed]

The question should maybe have been asked, do you want a German version or an American version?

[yso191]

I don't think the above is such great advice.  A post or two with this sentiment usually shows up in a recipe thread. 

Its terrific advice for an experienced, accomplished brewer who knows ingredients and processes very well.  It is bad advice for beginner and even most intermediate brewers.  A new brewer can wander in the woods of malts, yeasts, and waters for a very long time given this advice.  Frustration would be the natural outcome.

'Throw whatever you want into it. it'll turn out great.'  Usually turns out tasting brown.

I'm not in a bad mood, not a d*ck, and definitely not wanting to start a fight, I just honestly think this is bad advice which will lead to frustration and poor beer.

I don't disagree, Steve.  So then, what would you recommend as fixes to the proposed recipe?

Cheers.

Haha!  I don't have any recommendations.  I am not experienced enough with the style.  I opened the thread to learn.  I just have experienced the frustration of willy nilly experimentations.  Doing experiments correctly is laborious, involving many iterations of a recipe, changing one variable at a time.  When one wants to make good, drinkable beer in 5 gallon batches... Well it militates against the scientific method.

My bottom line: teachers are wonderful shortcuts to excellence.

[James K]

I am in the middle of this do what you want talk. Part of me says, it’s your beer. Do what you want. If you want a pound use a pound. Also, part of me says heed the warning, 1/4# is not that much so if you want some, start small before going big. I know in my experience I usually go big and then I’m like, chit, over did it and now I have to deal with this. So I’m startin to learn that I can start small and do the opposite. Chit, I under did it, next time I’ll use a little more.

I think the Pilsner and Vienna is a good combo, it’s taste will be there but I personally would only be adding Munich for color and a little flavor (same with Cara) , I might scale that back if it were my beer and raise the pils Vienna ratio equally.

You may not have the ability to lager but can keep your beer cool with other methods, wet T-shirt for example, or in a tub of water. 

I come to the forum to have it help me make up my own mind. Sometimes people say do this, and I’m like nah, and post my results later and share. Sometimes people say do that, and I had never thought of that before.

Cheers.

[RC]

I don't think the above is such great advice.  A post or two with this sentiment usually shows up in a recipe thread. 

Its terrific advice for an experienced, accomplished brewer who knows ingredients and processes very well.  It is bad advice for beginner and even most intermediate brewers.  A new brewer can wander in the woods of malts, yeasts, and waters for a very long time given this advice.  Frustration would be the natural outcome.

'Throw whatever you want into it. it'll turn out great.'  Usually turns out tasting brown.

I'm not in a bad mood, not a d*ck, and definitely not wanting to start a fight, I just honestly think this is bad advice which will lead to frustration and poor beer.

I don't disagree, Steve.  So then, what would you recommend as fixes to the proposed recipe?

Cheers.

Haha!  I don't have any recommendations.  I am not experienced enough with the style.  I opened the thread to learn.  I just have experienced the frustration of willy nilly experimentations.  Doing experiments correctly is laborious, involving many iterations of a recipe, changing one variable at a time.  When one wants to make good, drinkable beer in 5 gallon batches... Well it militates against the scientific method.

My bottom line: teachers are wonderful shortcuts to excellence.

I appreciate your perspective. But my point was, and I don’t mean to pick on anyone here, “don’t use carared because I don’t like it” is bad advice that should be ignored. Just because you personally (not literally referring here to you personally) don’t like an ingredient doesn’t mean everyone else doesn’t like it. I love simcoe, for example. Many hate it. Am I wrong to use it? Of course not. Advising me to not use simcoe would be absurd. And if I've never used simcoe before, and don't yet know that I like it, then saying "don't use it because I hate it!" would be doing me a disservice. Better advice: “if you use that much of that ingredient, your beer might have such-and-such character and/or might be a little out of style.” Granted, if the OP was planning to use 50% carared for the grain bill, I think we'd all go "whoa whoa whoa there tiger..." But the originally posted recipe was within range of an o-fest and is a perfectly good starting point.

[erockrph]

Paulaner keeps it simple with the marzen getting 70% light munich, and 30% pils (sinamar to color), and the fest getting 70% pils and 30% light munich. 24 ibus 60 minutes.

Good to know. Paulaner Marzen in one of my all-time faves. I've been gradually dialing the specialty grains back on my Marzen over the years, but I might just try eliminating them completely next time except for some color adjustment.

[ynotbrusum]

Paulaner keeps it simple with the marzen getting 70% light munich, and 30% pils (sinamar to color), and the fest getting 70% pils and 30% light munich. 24 ibus 60 minutes.

Good to know. Paulaner Marzen in one of my all-time faves. I've been gradually dialing the specialty grains back on my Marzen over the years, but I might just try eliminating them completely next time except for some color adjustment.

Agreed on going  away from caramel malts, with the exception of Carahell.  I use that one in my Helles.

[klickitat jim]

Am I the only one who decides to build a recipe, then discovers that the best examples of that style are far more simple. But I'm like... ya, but, how will i ever get to try all these cool specialty malts? That urge is even more compelling if those speciality malts are sitting around your brewery.

Drew's "Brewing On The Ones" helped me get over that. Though the beer i sent him had 2 base malts, 2 color malts, 2 bittering hops, and 2 flavor hops. I guess brewing on the 2s is close enough lol. No more brewing on the 15s for me

[Robert]

^^^^
Ha!  Seems like every so often I end up throwing out my accumulated odds and ends of specialty malts, because they're staring at me, tempting me to overcomplicate things just to use them up....

[yugamrap]

Jamil Zainasheff's Brewing Classic Styles has always been a good starting point for recipes for me - especially on the first try with a style.  Over the years, I've tweaked the recipes a bit to fit my tastes and preferences.  And, over the years, I've tended to end up with simpler recipes in terms of the number of ingredients.  Attempts at "complexity" often just result in a beer with no particular character.  I think that keeping the recipe simpler allows ingredients and brewing skill to shine.   

[Frankenbrew]

Jamil Zainasheff's Brewing Classic Styles has always been a good starting point for recipes for me - especially on the first try with a style.  Over the years, I've tweaked the recipes a bit to fit my tastes and preferences.  And, over the years, I've tended to end up with simpler recipes in terms of the number of ingredients.  Attempts at "complexity" often just result in a beer with no particular character.  I think that keeping the recipe simpler allows ingredients and brewing skill to shine.   

+ a zillion

[Kirk]

It's been a while since I checked on this post. I want to first say thanks to everyone who posted and provided advice/insight. I did tweak (pretty significant actually) the recipe based on more research and comments, so thanks!

Here is what I ended up going with

6lbs Weyermann Vienna
4lbs Weyermann Pilsner
1lb carapils (could not get carafoam)
1lb Dingemans Munich
1/2lb of carared
1oz of Tettnag at 60mins
1oz of Hallertauer at last 15mins

IBU's calculated to be 22.9, finish at 5.5% (maybe a little low, but we'll see what happens).

I wanted the color a little darker, so I added 2oz of roasted barely, which did the trick. It gave it a nice kick without imparting any taste that I can tell.

I was concerned about being able to hit the main ferm temperature with a true lager yeast, so I decided to try WLP810 (san fran lager yeast). Right now the beer is in my keggerator with a heating pad. The keg temperature was way higher than I thought (50F - this probably explains why I need so much C02 pressure and time to get good carbonation), so the combination of the keggerator being $hitty, and the heating pad is keeping the temp consistent at 58-59F. Honestly, I probably could have chosen a different strain and made it work, but experience is a good teacher.

It's day 4 into fermentation right now, and things are looking good so far. Any advice on this yeast? It's described as an lager like characteristics, even at higher temps. This makes me wonder if I should pull it out of the keggerator and allow it rise up to 64F after reaching half terminal gravity? Never laggered before, and this strain is unique.

[BrewBama]

It's been a while since I checked on this post. I want to first say thanks to everyone who posted and provided advice/insight. I did tweak (pretty significant actually) the recipe based on more research and comments, so thanks!

Here is what I ended up going with

6lbs Weyermann Vienna
4lbs Weyermann Pilsner
1lb carapils (could not get carafoam)
1lb Dingemans Munich
1/2lb of carared
1oz of Tettnag at 60mins
1oz of Hallertauer at last 15mins

IBU's calculated to be 22.9, finish at 5.5% (maybe a little low, but we'll see what happens).

I wanted the color a little darker, so I added 2oz of roasted barely, which did the trick. It gave it a nice kick without imparting any taste that I can tell.

I was concerned about being able to hit the main ferm temperature with a true lager yeast, so I decided to try WLP810 (san fran lager yeast). Right now the beer is in my keggerator with a heating pad. The keg temperature was way higher than I thought (50F - this probably explains why I need so much C02 pressure and time to get good carbonation), so the combination of the keggerator being $hitty, and the heating pad is keeping the temp consistent at 58-59F. Honestly, I probably could have chosen a different strain and made it work, but experience is a good teacher.

It's day 4 into fermentation right now, and things are looking good so far. Any advice on this yeast? It's described as an lager like characteristics, even at higher temps. This makes me wonder if I should pull it out of the keggerator and allow it rise up to 64F after reaching half terminal gravity? Never laggered before, and this strain is unique.

Experience is a [VERY] good teacher.

I think you’re fine. Don’t futz with it. Let nature take its course. CA Lager Yeast “has the ability to ferment up to 65°F (18°C) while retaining lager characteristics. Can also be fermented down to 50°F (10°C) to produce märzens, pilsners and other style lagers.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Iliff Ave]

Brewing one soon even though it will be ready a little late.

50% Weyermann Munich II
41% Weyermann Pilsner
8% Weyermann Vienna
1% carafa II

Amber Malty water

21 IBUs with Magnum/HM @ 60

Undecided on yeast. Probably Imperial L17

[dmtaylor]

It's been a while since I checked on this post. I want to first say thanks to everyone who posted and provided advice/insight. I did tweak (pretty significant actually) the recipe based on more research and comments, so thanks!

Here is what I ended up going with

6lbs Weyermann Vienna
4lbs Weyermann Pilsner
1lb carapils (could not get carafoam)
1lb Dingemans Munich
1/2lb of carared
1oz of Tettnag at 60mins
1oz of Hallertauer at last 15mins

IBU's calculated to be 22.9, finish at 5.5% (maybe a little low, but we'll see what happens).

I wanted the color a little darker, so I added 2oz of roasted barely, which did the trick. It gave it a nice kick without imparting any taste that I can tell.

I was concerned about being able to hit the main ferm temperature with a true lager yeast, so I decided to try WLP810 (san fran lager yeast). Right now the beer is in my keggerator with a heating pad. The keg temperature was way higher than I thought (50F - this probably explains why I need so much C02 pressure and time to get good carbonation), so the combination of the keggerator being $hitty, and the heating pad is keeping the temp consistent at 58-59F. Honestly, I probably could have chosen a different strain and made it work, but experience is a good teacher.

It's day 4 into fermentation right now, and things are looking good so far. Any advice on this yeast? It's described as an lager like characteristics, even at higher temps. This makes me wonder if I should pull it out of the keggerator and allow it rise up to 64F after reaching half terminal gravity? Never laggered before, and this strain is unique.

Recipe looks good.  I've used WLP810 several times both at cold 50 F and cool 60 F temperatures and have been very pleased with it in every case.  Made a great "altbier" and "schwarzbier" with it last year.

[Kirk]

It's been a while since I checked on this post. I want to first say thanks to everyone who posted and provided advice/insight. I did tweak (pretty significant actually) the recipe based on more research and comments, so thanks!

Here is what I ended up going with

6lbs Weyermann Vienna
4lbs Weyermann Pilsner
1lb carapils (could not get carafoam)
1lb Dingemans Munich
1/2lb of carared
1oz of Tettnag at 60mins
1oz of Hallertauer at last 15mins

IBU's calculated to be 22.9, finish at 5.5% (maybe a little low, but we'll see what happens).

I wanted the color a little darker, so I added 2oz of roasted barely, which did the trick. It gave it a nice kick without imparting any taste that I can tell.

I was concerned about being able to hit the main ferm temperature with a true lager yeast, so I decided to try WLP810 (san fran lager yeast). Right now the beer is in my keggerator with a heating pad. The keg temperature was way higher than I thought (50F - this probably explains why I need so much C02 pressure and time to get good carbonation), so the combination of the keggerator being $hitty, and the heating pad is keeping the temp consistent at 58-59F. Honestly, I probably could have chosen a different strain and made it work, but experience is a good teacher.

It's day 4 into fermentation right now, and things are looking good so far. Any advice on this yeast? It's described as an lager like characteristics, even at higher temps. This makes me wonder if I should pull it out of the keggerator and allow it rise up to 64F after reaching half terminal gravity? Never laggered before, and this strain is unique.

Recipe looks good.  I've used WLP810 several times both at cold 50 F and cool 60 F temperatures and have been very pleased with it in every case.  Made a great "altbier" and "schwarzbier" with it last year.

Encouraging! Thanks for the responses!