[egg]

I'm attempting to make some candi syrup using pretty much the method in the Sui Generis blog.  This does away with the idea of using an acid to aid inversion, for reasons best explained in the blog. In short, he says it inhibits Maillard reactions; essentially if you use an acid, you are making inverted and caramelised syrup rather than a 'maillard' candi.

I have some lime, and once I've sorted out the problem of crystals forming during the initial (part) inversion stage, before it's added, I want to know whether I need to neutralise the alkalinity of the candi syrup at the end (and how best, if so).  It seems like there would be enough lime just in the candi to affect the alkalinity of the wort significantly.

Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated; it covers quite a few areas of expertise!

[Robert]

My understanding is that acidification is necessary in order to achieve the inversion.  (I've made British style invert syrup, but not Belgian candi sugar.)  As I understand it, to make candi sugar, you add lye, lime or the like to raise pH again after inversion and then proceed to  caramelization/ Maillard browning.  Seems you need the right pH for each stage. There's a sidebar detailing the process in the letters section of the most recent Zymurgy.  That might help you, have a look. 

On the practical side of dealing with wort pH, when I use invert I do take into account the amount of acid it brings when doing my calculations; it can simply supply all or part of the necessary kettle acid addition when added late in the boil.  You could probably likewise just account for the alkalinity of the candi sugar by calculating such an acid addition to the kettle, rather than trying to neutralize it in the sugar making process.

And one more thing.  A small amount of dextrose in the initial mix will prevent crystals forming before inversion.

[denny]

My understanding is that acidification is necessary in order to achieve the inversion.  (I've made British style invert syrup, but not Belgian candi sugar.)  As I understand it, to make candi sugar, you add lye, lime or the like to raise pH again after inversion and then proceed to  caramelization/ Maillard browning.  Seems you need the right pH for each stage. There's a sidebar detailing the process in the letters section of the most recent Zymurgy.  That might help you, have a look. 

On the practical side of dealing with wort pH, when I use invert I do take into account the amount of acid it brings when doing my calculations; it can simply supply all or part of the necessary kettle acid addition when added late in the boil.  You could probably likewise just account for the alkalinity of the candi sugar by calculating such an acid addition to the kettle, rather than trying to neutralize it in the sugar making process.

And one more thing.  A small amount of dextrose in the initial mix will prevent crystals forming before inversion.

FWIW, he's making candi syrup, not candi sugar

[Robert]

My understanding is that acidification is necessary in order to achieve the inversion.  (I've made British style invert syrup, but not Belgian candi sugar.)  As I understand it, to make candi sugar, you add lye, lime or the like to raise pH again after inversion and then proceed to  caramelization/ Maillard browning.  Seems you need the right pH for each stage. There's a sidebar detailing the process in the letters section of the most recent Zymurgy.  That might help you, have a look. 

On the practical side of dealing with wort pH, when I use invert I do take into account the amount of acid it brings when doing my calculations; it can simply supply all or part of the necessary kettle acid addition when added late in the boil.  You could probably likewise just account for the alkalinity of the candi sugar by calculating such an acid addition to the kettle, rather than trying to neutralize it in the sugar making process.

And one more thing.  A small amount of dextrose in the initial mix will prevent crystals forming before inversion.

FWIW, he's making candi syrup, not candi sugar

Got that. But I assume that up until you decide whether or not to take it to the hard crack stage, the chemistry is the same.  The inversion step has a lower optimal pH.   After reading the instructions in Zymurgy, I personally would be inclined to just buy candi syrup or sugar.  You just can't buy the British version though.

[denny]

My understanding is that acidification is necessary in order to achieve the inversion.  (I've made British style invert syrup, but not Belgian candi sugar.)  As I understand it, to make candi sugar, you add lye, lime or the like to raise pH again after inversion and then proceed to  caramelization/ Maillard browning.  Seems you need the right pH for each stage. There's a sidebar detailing the process in the letters section of the most recent Zymurgy.  That might help you, have a look. 

On the practical side of dealing with wort pH, when I use invert I do take into account the amount of acid it brings when doing my calculations; it can simply supply all or part of the necessary kettle acid addition when added late in the boil.  You could probably likewise just account for the alkalinity of the candi sugar by calculating such an acid addition to the kettle, rather than trying to neutralize it in the sugar making process.

And one more thing.  A small amount of dextrose in the initial mix will prevent crystals forming before inversion.

FWIW, he's making candi syrup, not candi sugar

Got that. But I assume that up until you decide whether or not to take it to the hard crack stage, the chemistry is the same.  The inversion step has a lower optimal pH.   After reading the instructions in Zymurgy, I personally would be inclined to just buy candi syrup or sugar.  You just can't buy the British version though.

I'd say buy candi syrup and don't bother with candi sugar.

[egg]

Well another failed attempt and a burnt finger later, and I just wish we could get hold of D-90 or 180 over here in the UK!

Robert - the blog (part 3) addresses the acid (for inversion) thing, saying that very little of the mix needs to be inverted before progressing, in their view.  However, I didn't have dextrose to hand this time, so I guesstimated a tbsp of golden syrup, which is partially inverted, and prevented crystals well into the attempted Maillard phase.  I say 'attempted', because my lime clearly wasn't enough or as effective as in the video on that blog.  I had crystals gathering all around before I got the darker colour and had to stop before getting there.

I'm not sure how many more attempts I can face - it's a lengthy process of trial and error!

[ynotbrusum]

I’m easily confused, but isn’t Lyle’s Golden syrup already invert syrup?  I don’t know what is meant by partially inverted syrup.  Sounds like it is just a matter of mail ordering the Belgian Candy syrup to avoid the issue.  That’s what I did after tiring of making invert syrup a few times back when I was extract brewing English ales a lot.

[Robert]

I’m easily confused, but isn’t Lyle’s Golden syrup already invert syrup?  I don’t know what is meant by partially inverted syrup.  Sounds like it is just a matter of mail ordering the Belgian Candy syrup to avoid the issue.  That’s what I did after tiring of making invert syrup a few times back when I was extract brewing English ales a lot.

Lyle's is only partially inverted, white sugar syrup.  Enough of the sucrose is inverted to prevent crystallization of the whole lot (works like adding dextrose, there is enough of a chemically different sugar present to get in the way of crystals forming, at least as I understand it with a little help from Alton Brown,) but it is not yet fully the readily fermentable form.  Yeast still have to invert some of the sucrose themselves.  So contrary to rumors it is not a substitute for no. 1 invert,  the color is only ~2° SRM and the flavor is quite different. I tried the Unholy Mess method of mixing Golden Syrup with blackstrap to imitate the various types of Invert and found the results bore no resemblance to the invert raw cane sugar syrups I made.  Flavor as well as color quite different.  But I gather that the Belgian candi syrup is only partially inverted white sugar also, with the emphasis on the caramelization phase of the process at high pH to produce flavors very different from the British product.   I agree that if I wanted Belgian candi  and couldn't get it locally I'd try mail order.   Unfortunately there's no way to get British invert besides making it yourself.  Lucky for me I find I really prefer an all malt bitter anyway.

[egg]

I'm going to try using DAP.  It apparently breaks down to provide the nitrogen for the Maillard, and acid for the inversion.  Searching further led me to a thread elsewhere from 2009.  It distinguishes clearly between caramel browning and Maillard reactions, but (contrary perhaps to the Sui Generis blog) isn't fixed on developing the latter in an alkaline solution.

In a flip to my original question, should I bother factoring in the phosphoric acid produced by (maybe 12g) of DAP, that ends up in 5g of wort?

[Robert]

As I said indicated earlier,  I do consider whether the amount of acid my invert  brings is significant.   If you're using software to do your water and pH calculations,  and adding the syrup late in the boil, you can run the numbers both with and without the extra acid to get an idea of the pH reduction it will give.   It may be in line with the desired reduction at that point (many brewers acidify the wort late in the boil, so that hop utilization and protein coagulation are improved by higher boil pH and then the reduced pH facilitates hot break separation and provides desirable conditions for the start of fermentation.)  If you're adding the syrup at the start of the boil it's even more straightforward.  Just see if you need to neutralize any of the acid to hit a desirable initial pH in the boil.  Offhand it looks to me like 12 g in 5 gal  might be significant.

On the other hand it occurs to me that if you were fortunate enough to be able to buy candi syrup, you would have no idea just what acids or bases it contained, or what effect it would have, until you simply brewed a batch and saw what happened.   Maybe not overthinking it is another option.

[denny]

As I said indicated earlier,  I do consider whether the amount of acid my invert  brings is significant.   If you're using software to do your water and pH calculations,  and adding the syrup late in the boil, you can run the numbers both with and without the extra acid to get an idea of the pH reduction it will give.   It may be in line with the desired reduction at that point (many brewers acidify the wort late in the boil, so that hop utilization and protein coagulation are improved by higher boil pH and then the reduced pH facilitates hot break separation and provides desirable conditions for the start of fermentation.)  If you're adding the syrup at the start of the boil it's even more straightforward.  Just see if you need to neutralize any of the acid to hit a desirable initial pH in the boil.  Offhand it looks to me like 12 g in 5 gal  might be significant.

On the other hand it occurs to me that if you were fortunate enough to be able to buy candi syrup, you would have no idea just what acids or bases it contained, or what effect it would have, until you simply brewed a batch and saw what happened.   Maybe not overthinking it is another option.

FWIW, Chris White recentlty said to me "homebrewers are WAY too hung up on numbers".

[Robert]

FWIW, Chris White recentlty said to me "homebrewers are WAY too hung up on numbers".

Excellent observation.   Probably because, for most of us, our only or best access to professional wisdom is through "the books," and the only thing book learning can teach you is numbers.   What we miss is being on deck during the brew day or in the cellar and getting the vibe of what they're really most focused on.  I'm guessing it's mostly not tripping over hoses.

[denny]

FWIW, Chris White recentlty said to me "homebrewers are WAY too hung up on numbers".

Excellent observation.   Probably because, for most of us, our only or best access to professional wisdom is through "the books," and the only thing book learning can teach you is numbers.   What we miss is being on deck during the brew day or in the cellar and getting the vibe of what they're really most focused on.  I'm guessing it's mostly not tripping over hoses.

😁

Which is why our next book is called "Simple Homebrewing"

[egg]

I did the DAP method tonight and it went REALLY WELL! Wish I'd done it this way first.

Terminated slightly over 143C (290F) and got loads of figs and raisins, with a touch of toast but not at all burnt.  Very dark and complex taste.  Can't wait to add it to the fermenter! Taking the relaxed view of ph then, in the light of your comments. 

[Robert]

Congratulations on your well deserved success!  Do let us know how the beer turns out.