[Robert]

I don't think any brewers using any of the books or software in question are practically able to provide the high partial pressure of CO2 required to dissolve chalk, nor would the effort likely be justifiable, and the fact that this is what is required has never been made explicit in the popular sources (except  for Palmer and Kaminski, but that's not a source homebrewers will come to before laboring under many misconceptions for a long time, if ever.)

I heartily agree with you on sulfate, Martin.

Maybe there are enough of these mini myths about water treatment waiting to be busted to fill up an article.  I know you're plenty busy, but someone might take up the challenge.

Thanks for chiming in, and enjoy your holiday!

[BrewBama]

I’ve done it using Kai’s method — once.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk

Interestingly, though Mr deLange is cited as a reference in Kai’s article, he does not recommend it now. He started talking way over my head very quickly but the gist was: don’t use chalk.


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[The Beerery]

Sulfate is indeed a very useful and DESIRABLE component in brewing German beers. One only has to taste a good German Pils or Kolsch to know that sulfate is an important feature in their overall beer perception. Even in southern Bavarian styles, the low sulfate content provides a slight drying in the beer's finish to help them avoid being cloying or overly full. Unfortunately, there are under-educated individuals that continue myths such as sulfate causes undesirable effects with noble hops or sulfate will create bitter beer. I can only state that they are incorrect in their perceptions and admissions. There is room for PROPER sulfate levels in German beer brewing. It should be low in Bavarian styles.

Ouch.

No, that would be proper mashing, hotside and fermentation. But I guess I'm too under-educated on German beer to know. AJ I guess is a knob as well.

[dmtaylor]

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

[Robert]

I’ve done it using Kai’s method — once.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk

Interestingly, though Mr deLange is cited as a reference in Kai’s article, he does not recommend it now. He started talking way over my head very quickly but the gist was: don’t use chalk.


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Kai did it, IIRC, to replicate a specific local water profile.  But we keep coming back to the point, preached by Martin, Denny, Palmer, and others, that reproducing reported profiles (which breweries likely modify) should not be the goal, but rather providing the water the beer really needs.  There's an easier way than dissolving chalk to provide calcium and alkalinity (whichbas Martin notes you may need to turn around and neutralize.) Even the brewery Kai was mimicking may not use the water in the form he reproduced.  The whole notion of historic and regional water profiles is another myth for this putative future article to bust.

Not surprised you only did it once, BrewBama.

[denny]

Thanks, everybody.

Living in Los Angeles I've made some bad tap water batches. There's only so much you can do with it, and when it comes to the lighter styles, it comes out dirty tasting.

Didn't know about the chalk, that is good to know, and to be a jerk about it, why Marin is it even listed as a mineral addition if it is ultimately ineffective?

I have no deep wells. So best I can do about my dilemma is to go to Ralphs and buy RO water in gallon jugs. My new water additions look like this:
.9g gypsum
.2g cal chlor.
5 ml Lactic.

It gives me a pretty close profile to Boiled Munich.

Gypsum is wicked out of place in German beer. 


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Not for my German pils....it's essential

[BrewBama]

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Yep


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[The Beerery]

Thanks, everybody.

Living in Los Angeles I've made some bad tap water batches. There's only so much you can do with it, and when it comes to the lighter styles, it comes out dirty tasting.

Didn't know about the chalk, that is good to know, and to be a jerk about it, why Marin is it even listed as a mineral addition if it is ultimately ineffective?

I have no deep wells. So best I can do about my dilemma is to go to Ralphs and buy RO water in gallon jugs. My new water additions look like this:
.9g gypsum
.2g cal chlor.
5 ml Lactic.

It gives me a pretty close profile to Boiled Munich.

Gypsum is wicked out of place in German beer. 


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Not for my German pils....it's essential

Which is I am assuming.. single infused, late hopped, fermented with dry yeast, warmer?
Again thats totally fine, but nothing a real German brewery would do.

But in the spirit of RDWHAHB, I shall bow out of this.. You guys do you.

[Robert]

Thanks, everybody.

Living in Los Angeles I've made some bad tap water batches. There's only so much you can do with it, and when it comes to the lighter styles, it comes out dirty tasting.

Didn't know about the chalk, that is good to know, and to be a jerk about it, why Marin is it even listed as a mineral addition if it is ultimately ineffective?

I have no deep wells. So best I can do about my dilemma is to go to Ralphs and buy RO water in gallon jugs. My new water additions look like this:
.9g gypsum
.2g cal chlor.
5 ml Lactic.

It gives me a pretty close profile to Boiled Munich.

Gypsum is wicked out of place in German beer. 


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Not for my German pils....it's essential

Which is I am assuming.. single infused, late hopped, fermented with dry yeast, warmer?
Again thats totally fine, but nothing a real German brewery would do.

But in the spirit of RDWHAHB, I shall bow out of this.. You guys do you.

Wow.  Just reminded of this exchange last year.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=32026.msg414329#msg414329

Guess the heat's getting to us the same way again, eh fellas?

[The Beerery]

Nope, no beef.

The proverbial you, do you. I'll do me. I forgot were I was for a minute.

[BrewBama]

...You yourself have griped in the past about how the AHA website isn't always accurate or current, but yet it should be the go-to place for accurate and current homebrewing knowledge. ...

I’ve said this ^^^^.   


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[denny]

Thanks, everybody.

Living in Los Angeles I've made some bad tap water batches. There's only so much you can do with it, and when it comes to the lighter styles, it comes out dirty tasting.

Didn't know about the chalk, that is good to know, and to be a jerk about it, why Marin is it even listed as a mineral addition if it is ultimately ineffective?

I have no deep wells. So best I can do about my dilemma is to go to Ralphs and buy RO water in gallon jugs. My new water additions look like this:
.9g gypsum
.2g cal chlor.
5 ml Lactic.

It gives me a pretty close profile to Boiled Munich.

Gypsum is wicked out of place in German beer. 


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Not for my German pils....it's essential

Which is I am assuming.. single infused, late hopped, fermented with dry yeast, warmer?
Again thats totally fine, but nothing a real German brewery would do.

But in the spirit of RDWHAHB, I shall bow out of this.. You guys do you.

You know what they say about assume....you are incorrect on all counts.   And what I care about anyway is results, not process.  If it tastes like a good German pils, I don't care how I get there.

[Pope of Dope]

Wow!! I'm Marin now?? I'm hoping my name fits me to a T.

Chalk certainly is usable in brewing and its not a mistake to include that option in a calculator. The real problem is that users don't understand how difficult it is to dissolve chalk in water. Unless the user is employing pressurized CO2 to supply the carbonic acid necessary to achieve solubility, its not going to work as the brewer assumes or intends. It appears that I should incorporate some sort of pop up warning when a user puts a value in the chalk addition cell.

The other thing that needs to be pointed out is that many Bru'n Water profiles include the alkalinity (presented as bicarbonate in Bru'n Water) that would be present in the raw water from their water source. In many cases, the brewers of old had to implement techniques or additions to neutralize that alkalinity. That is the case in Bru'n Water too. While you could ADD that alkalinity to create a more authentic starting water profile, you would almost certainly have to neutralize it in the mashing and sparging water to produce a desirable beer. I suggest that brewers ignore the bicarbonate and calcium targets that are presented in water profiles and only add the minerals and acids necessary to produce an acceptable mashing pH and low sparging water alkalinity. The rest of the water profile ion concentrations are what you should consider your real targets.

Sulfate is indeed a very useful and DESIRABLE component in brewing German beers. One only has to taste a good German Pils or Kolsch to know that sulfate is an important feature in their overall beer perception. Even in southern Bavarian styles, the low sulfate content provides a slight drying in the beer's finish to help them avoid being cloying or overly full. Unfortunately, there are under-educated individuals that continue myths such as sulfate causes undesirable effects with noble hops or sulfate will create bitter beer. I can only state that they are incorrect in their perceptions and admissions. There is room for PROPER sulfate levels in German beer brewing. It should be low in Bavarian styles.

Thanks Marin.  The more you know.

To hijack my own post, got busy and messed up the volume and ended up with 1.042 OG (which probably gives me a 3.5 abv). Anyone else brew a Hef like this before? My concern is that it's going to be watery.

[BrewBama]

To hijack my own post, got busy and messed up the volume and ended up with 1.042 OG (which probably gives me a 3.5 abv). Anyone else brew a Hef like this before? My concern is that it's going to be watery.

Have any DME hangin around? You could bump up the OG.


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[Big Monk]

I’ve done it using Kai’s method — once.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk

Interestingly, though Mr deLange is cited as a reference in Kai’s article, he does not recommend it now. He started talking way over my head very quickly but the gist was: don’t use chalk.


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A.J. has the tendency to inadvertently go way over peoples heads!

He’s a fantastic resource though once you understand what he’s talking about.