[BrewBama]

I guess I should have been more specific. It doesn’t metabolize maltotriose as much as say US-05 or W34/70.   I usually get 70-75%AA from S-04.




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[Bel Air Brewing]

I spoke too soon...the Porter is actively fermenting still, just much slower activity than when it first took off.

Probably another 7 to 10 days and it will be ready. I'll bet we get 70%+ when it is done. My wife is quite happy with it now.

Great coffee, caramel, and chocolate flavors coming through. Very smooth, not fruity at all.

[Cliffs]

I guess I should have been more specific. It doesn’t metabolize maltotriose as much as say US-05 or W34/70.   I usually get 70-75%AA from S-04.




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awesome chart

[Bel Air Brewing]

Yes, an absolutely awesome chart. Cool colors, with a nice graphic display. But we are having some difficulty parlaying the chart data into our real world brewing experience, and flavor profiles.

Without definition of the terms and nomenclatures used, it tells us nothing.

[Cliffs]

its remarkable how similar s189 and 34/70 are.

[erockrph]

its remarkable how similar s189 and 34/70 are.

34/70 looks pretty close to US-05, too

[Bel Air Brewing]

I guess I should have been more specific. It doesn’t metabolize maltotriose as much as say US-05 or W34/70.   I usually get 70-75%AA from S-04.

The chart is eye catching, and a good graphic display.

However, I'm still trying to determine exactly what the bar graph tells us in terms of the end taste of the beer.

Example, maltotriose...

Maltotriose is a carbohydrate comprising three linked (alpha 1,4) glucose molecules and is an important fermentable sugar in wort. Maltotriose is generated during mashing as a result of the enzymatic breakdown of starches. In an all-malt wort, maltotriose typically accounts for about 15% to 20% of the total carbohydrate content. So-called hydrolyzed starch syrups (also known as glucose syrups), usually made from corn or wheat, also contain maltotriose produced from starches that are converted by extraneous enzymes into a mix of various fermentable and nonfermentable sugars. Most brewer’s yeasts can metabolize maltotriose, but they do so only after all the more easily absorbable sugars, such as glucose and maltose, have been consumed.

So exactly how does this translate to the end product and flavor profile?

And can someone here tell us what maltotriose tastes like? Inquiring beer consumers have a right to know!

Yeast metabolize the different wort sugars in different ways. To consume the disaccharide sucrose, the yeast utilizes an enzyme called invertase, which works outside the cell to hydrolyze the molecule into its components — glucose and fructose. The glucose and fructose molecules are then transported through the cell wall and metabolized inside the cell. Conversely, maltose and maltotriose are transported into the cell first, and then are broken down into glucoses by the enzyme maltase. Even though the enzyme for both sugars is the same, maltose is typically consumed first, indicating that the cell wall transport mechanism for the two sugars is different. Maybe maltotriose is too big to get through the maltose door!

The take-home message is that all fermentable sugars are broken down into monosaccharides like glucose before being utilized by the yeast, and that yeast evidently prefer to eat their sugars one course at a time. This has big implications for wort formulation in our pursuit of new recipes and unique styles.

https://byo.com/article/sweetness-brewing-sugars-how-to-use-them/

[Megary]

I’ll be making a Brown Ale with S-04 this weekend. I’ve never noticed a distracting yeasty, bready thing from this yeast before, but maybe that’s because I’ve only ever used it in a Stout (a decision I made partly based on a recommendation from Denny).
Link

Maybe this Brown will leave a bit more room for S-04 to show itself.  Fermentation will probably be in the mid 60’s.

I think it's one of things that once you taste it you always know its there. If you brew a fairly pale bitter with S-04 you'll probably pick it up. A brown ale may be alright. Good luck!

Thanks.  Fermentation seems to be going well, quick start, temp peaked at about 65-66.  Sat around 62 for a few more days and then I bumped it to 68 where it currently sits.  It will be a few weeks before it’s ready to drink.

The Brown got packaged today.  I got only 68% from S-04, not sure what to make of that.  The sample from the hydrometer tasted fine so no worries there. Should be ready to drink by the middle of next week.  I’ll be looking hard for that bready thing.

[Bel Air Brewing]

The Brown got packaged today.  I got only 68% from S-04, not sure what to make of that.  The sample from the hydrometer tasted fine so no worries there. Should be ready to drink by the middle of next week.  I’ll be looking hard for that bready thing.


My sample tasted great, at 4.86% ABV. Still another 7 days to go.
Bready? Not even a hint. None. Period.

[dmtaylor]

Hi guys, sorry I'm late to the party.

I've used S-04 exactly 4 times in the past 3 years.  I don't get bready or doughy or yeasty from it, but really just malty, nutty, toasty.  Tastes pretty clean to me, low non-descript fruitiness, and tends to accentuate the malt in my experience.  Some might actually say it's a little TOO clean for an English yeast and I would tend to agree.

My fermentation temperatures, I'll look them up..... 63 F (constant), 57-67 F (pitched cool then ramped), 63-68 F (ramped), and "low 60s" for the last one.  The one that turned out the best, a very tasty Scottish 60/-, was the one pitched cool at 57 F then ramped up.

My attenuation has always been 77-78% except just one time was only 58% for no reason I could figure -- odd.  That was the one I really liked that was pitched cool.  But it just happened the one time.  Mash parameters were about 154 F for anywhere from 20 minutes to 120 minutes, guess I played around a bit... and yet they still always attenuated the same.  Pretty amazing to me.

FWIW, this all reminds me VERY much of Nottingham.  I have used Notty a ton, and it always gives attenuation of exactly 77-78%, regardless of mash parameters, pretty clean, all the same stuff really.  Upon this realization now, maybe I should run a side-by-side sometime.

I don't understand the dislike for either of these yeasts, they are both quite good, solid performers.  If anything, too clean.  I think I get a little peach from Notty when fermented too cool, similar to US-05.  Haven't got that from S-04.  I can't even describe the fruitiness from S-04.  It has esters but non-distinctive.  I guess maybe I haven't fermented warm enough for them to really come out much.

So that's my experience for whatever it's worth.  Cheers all.

[lupulus]

S04 does not ferment maltotriose.
FG will be 3-4 points higher than other yeasts.

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[dmtaylor]

Yes, an absolutely awesome chart. Cool colors, with a nice graphic display. But we are having some difficulty parlaying the chart data into our real world brewing experience, and flavor profiles.

Without definition of the terms and nomenclatures used, it tells us nothing.

All it says basically is that S-04 attenuates slightly less than other yeasts like US-05, the Belgians, and the lager yeasts, which is well known even without the graph.  But in my experience it still gets 77-78%, which is no slouch either to be sure.

Actually I'm surprised by T-58, looks like that one struggles to eat complex sugars like maltotriose similar to S-33 and the likes of Windsor and London.

In response to some of your other comments.... maltotriose tastes like nothing meaningful.  In my view it just serves to keep the FG high and the ABV low.  That is all.

[Ellismr]

To OP: go ahead and use S-04. It is a great yeast for porters. I recommend fermenting cool (58-64F, no warmer).

To the people who do not like S-04, I believe you are fermenting it too warm, or at least starting too warm. I get great results from that yeast fermenting under 64F. Almost everyone I know who dislikes that yeast (many people) exclusively fermented in the high 60s or low 70s with it. Even 66F is too warm, IMO. I really shoot for 58-60F with S-04. I chill the wort down to 58F-60F and pitch, then keep my chamber set to 56F. When high krausen hits, I increase the chamber temperature to 64F. 48 hours later it's usually ready for a cold crash.

That said, taste is subjective. I absolutely despise Nottingham -- I don't find it neutral at all, it makes every beer taste tart to me. I feel the same way about WLP007, which I hate equally in British and American ales. I get nothing yeasty, doughy or overly tart from S-04, just a bit of restrained fruitiness and usually around 75% attenuation. It's not my favorite for bitters, but I like it plenty in porters and stouts.

I fermented it at 63 many times .  Still bready.  I also despise Notty.

Denny,
Same reason I don’t like S-04.  I use Notty on higher gravity brews but for browns & porters I like Windsor.


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[Bel Air Brewing]

Hi guys, sorry I'm late to the party.

I've used S-04 exactly 4 times in the past 3 years.  I don't get bready or doughy or yeasty from it, but really just malty, nutty, toasty.  Tastes pretty clean to me, low non-descript fruitiness, and tends to accentuate the malt in my experience.  Some might actually say it's a little TOO clean for an English yeast and I would tend to agree.

My fermentation temperatures, I'll look them up..... 63 F (constant), 57-67 F (pitched cool then ramped), 63-68 F (ramped), and "low 60s" for the last one.  The one that turned out the best, a very tasty Scottish 60/-, was the one pitched cool at 57 F then ramped up.

My attenuation has always been 77-78% except just one time was only 58% for no reason I could figure -- odd.  That was the one I really liked that was pitched cool.  But it just happened the one time.  Mash parameters were about 154 F for anywhere from 20 minutes to 120 minutes, guess I played around a bit... and yet they still always attenuated the same.  Pretty amazing to me.

FWIW, this all reminds me VERY much of Nottingham.  I have used Notty a ton, and it always gives attenuation of exactly 77-78%, regardless of mash parameters, pretty clean, all the same stuff really.  Upon this realization now, maybe I should run a side-by-side sometime.

I don't understand the dislike for either of these yeasts, they are both quite good, solid performers.  If anything, too clean.  I think I get a little peach from Notty when fermented too cool, similar to US-05.  Haven't got that from S-04.  I can't even describe the fruitiness from S-04.  It has esters but non-distinctive.  I guess maybe I haven't fermented warm enough for them to really come out much.

So that's my experience for whatever it's worth.  Cheers all.

Thanks for your well written feedback.
This is my first go with S-04, and it is performing very much like Wyeast London Ale in overall flavor profile.
A bit on the clean side, with very little if any fruitiness in the flavor. It does allow the malt to come through.
As stated, the ferment  temp has been 56 degrees.

[Iliff Ave]

Hi guys, sorry I'm late to the party.

I've used S-04 exactly 4 times in the past 3 years.  I don't get bready or doughy or yeasty from it, but really just malty, nutty, toasty.  Tastes pretty clean to me, low non-descript fruitiness, and tends to accentuate the malt in my experience.  Some might actually say it's a little TOO clean for an English yeast and I would tend to agree.

My fermentation temperatures, I'll look them up..... 63 F (constant), 57-67 F (pitched cool then ramped), 63-68 F (ramped), and "low 60s" for the last one.  The one that turned out the best, a very tasty Scottish 60/-, was the one pitched cool at 57 F then ramped up.

My attenuation has always been 77-78% except just one time was only 58% for no reason I could figure -- odd.  That was the one I really liked that was pitched cool.  But it just happened the one time.  Mash parameters were about 154 F for anywhere from 20 minutes to 120 minutes, guess I played around a bit... and yet they still always attenuated the same.  Pretty amazing to me.

FWIW, this all reminds me VERY much of Nottingham.  I have used Notty a ton, and it always gives attenuation of exactly 77-78%, regardless of mash parameters, pretty clean, all the same stuff really.  Upon this realization now, maybe I should run a side-by-side sometime.

I don't understand the dislike for either of these yeasts, they are both quite good, solid performers.  If anything, too clean.  I think I get a little peach from Notty when fermented too cool, similar to US-05.  Haven't got that from S-04.  I can't even describe the fruitiness from S-04.  It has esters but non-distinctive.  I guess maybe I haven't fermented warm enough for them to really come out much.

So that's my experience for whatever it's worth.  Cheers all.

My experience is very much similar to yours; especially the attenuation I get from S-04. It's a very consistent yeast and I actually find it to be quite neutral.