[Cliffs]

I recently brewed my scottish ale recipe but subbed out 16% of my base malt for malted rye. Recipe is as follows:

65% Golden promise
16% rye malt
6% caraaroma
4% biscuit
8% dark munich
<1% roasted barley for color
25 ibus with Galena
OG 1.056
FG 1.015
Use RO water and adjust with equal parts caso4 and cacl to get 30ppm calcium, mash ph 5.4
Scottish ale yeast, 2 liter starter and pure 02 for 30 seconds. Ferment at 60 degrees and transfer to keg to spund when gravity showed 1.020
step mash 148/158/162/174 on all electric system

I've brewed this recipe many many times without the rye, and changed nothing this time except for the addition of 16% rye. my bittering hops are the same that I've used for the same recipe without the rye. here's the thing, the perceived bitterness is much higher in this beer that its all barley counterpart. The only thing I can think of is that the rye somehow increased perceived bitterness. Has anyone else experienced this??

[pete b]

Although it seems like the only difference in the recipe is the rye it doesn't seem like a likely candidate for this phenomenon. Did you plug in the actual AA of the hops in a brewing calculator or is it possible that you may have on this occasssion or other occassions used the default? Was boil length and vigor the same? There's a possible in variation in the hops, or a mistake in labeling the AA of the hops.
Also, sometimes I find an early pour of a beer to be quite a bit more bitter than when it's at its peak.

[HopDen]

I recently brewed my scottish ale recipe but subbed out 16% of my base malt for malted rye. Recipe is as follows:

65% Golden promise
16% rye malt
6% caraaroma
4% biscuit
8% dark munich
<1% roasted barley for color
25 ibus with Galena
OG 1.056
FG 1.015
Use RO water and adjust with equal parts caso4 and cacl to get 30ppm calcium, mash ph 5.4
Scottish ale yeast, 2 liter starter and pure 02 for 30 seconds. Ferment at 60 degrees and transfer to keg to spund when gravity showed 1.020
step mash 148/158/162/174 on all electric system

I've brewed this recipe many many times without the rye, and changed nothing this time except for the addition of 16% rye. my bittering hops are the same that I've used for the same recipe without the rye. here's the thing, the perceived bitterness is much higher in this beer that its all barley counterpart. The only thing I can think of is that the rye somehow increased perceived bitterness. Has anyone else experienced this??

Is it possible that it may be the spiciness of the rye?  16% isn’t a heavy addition though. All things being equal my first thoughts were the rye.


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[denny]

I think it's possible you're detecting the spiciness of the rye.  Yeah, I know Dave Taylor claims that it isn't spicy, I think he's the only person I've ever heard say that.  I certainly detect it.

[Iliff Ave]

I think it's possible you're detecting the spiciness of the rye.  Yeah, I know Dave Taylor claims that it isn't spicy, I think he's the only person I've ever heard say that.  I certainly detect it.

+1

[Cliffs]

Although it seems like the only difference in the recipe is the rye it doesn't seem like a likely candidate for this phenomenon. Did you plug in the actual AA of the hops in a brewing calculator or is it possible that you may have on this occasssion or other occassions used the default? Was boil length and vigor the same? There's a possible in variation in the hops, or a mistake in labeling the AA of the hops.
Also, sometimes I find an early pour of a beer to be quite a bit more bitter than when it's at its peak.

yes, I plugged in the AA of the hops, and the hops I used are from the same pound of hops that I use for all my high alpha bittering additions. and I brewed it on my electric system same as always, same power setting, same boil off rate, same length of boil.

[Cliffs]

I think it's possible you're detecting the spiciness of the rye.  Yeah, I know Dave Taylor claims that it isn't spicy, I think he's the only person I've ever heard say that.  I certainly detect it.

maybe this is it. The bitterness is lingering and on the finish.

[dmtaylor]

Indeed, I would suspect hopping, dark Munich, biscuit, or possible contamination before I would suspect the rye.

[Cliffs]

Indeed, I would suspect hopping, dark Munich, biscuit, or possible contamination before I would suspect the rye.

hops are the exact same as I use for other batches, from the same 1 pound bag of pellets I use for most of my brews. stored vacuum sealed in the freezer between brews. the dark munich and biscuit are used in my recipe when I dont use rye. Nothing about the ferm indicated contamination, no abnormally high attenuation, beer cleared fine. I havent taken a final beer PH, but no off flavors that would indicate contamination

[denny]

Indeed, I would suspect hopping, dark Munich, biscuit, or possible contamination before I would suspect the rye.

You'd have to explain to me how any of those could have done it before I couldacrept it.  And yi y are the only person I've ever heard say rye was not spicy. Maybe you're taste blind to it?

[Megary]

I might be blind to the taste of it too, as I’ve not noticed anything from 16% Rye that would cause a beer to have a “perceived bitterness much higher than it’s all barley counterpart”.   40% maybe.

I’ll accept an argument that *some* Rye malts may be spicier than others however.

[dmtaylor]

I might be blind to the taste of it too, as I’ve not noticed anything from 16% Rye that would cause a beer to have a “perceived bitterness much higher than it’s all barley counterpart”.   40% maybe.

I’ll accept an argument that *some* Rye malts may be spicier than others however.

Ditto.

[pete b]

I wonder if there is some kind of taste receptor thing going on with rye.
I find it to be, while not quite the opposite, at least a counterpoint to both bitterness and spiciness. I use rye malt in recipes frequently to add a sort of viscous or full mouthfeel that I think counteracts bitterness. I use it in low abv/ low carb ipa to make up for the lack of body from a higher gravity or crystal malt. I think the combination of rye malt and wy1450 is the secret sauce in making Denny’s Rye IPA such a smooth drinker as it creates a counterpoint to the hops.
I would like to know, as someone who doesn’t detect the “spice” to know what they mean. Hot like Chile pepper or black pepper? Cumin? Ginger? Mace or nutmeg?
Could it be confirmation bias because rye is associated with rye bread and therefore caraway?

[reverseapachemaster]

I wonder if there is some kind of taste receptor thing going on with rye.
I find it to be, while not quite the opposite, at least a counterpoint to both bitterness and spiciness. I use rye malt in recipes frequently to add a sort of viscous or full mouthfeel that I think counteracts bitterness. I use it in low abv/ low carb ipa to make up for the lack of body from a higher gravity or crystal malt. I think the combination of rye malt and wy1450 is the secret sauce in making Denny’s Rye IPA such a smooth drinker as it creates a counterpoint to the hops.
I would like to know, as someone who doesn’t detect the “spice” to know what they mean. Hot like Chile pepper or black pepper? Cumin? Ginger? Mace or nutmeg?
Could it be confirmation bias because rye is associated with rye bread and therefore caraway?

I suspect, at least in this country, what most people think of as the flavor of rye is caraway because of bread.

I brew with rye a fair amount and the flavor changes as it becomes a larger portion of the grain bill. In lower amounts it is "spicy" which I don't think is a great descriptor. It is closer to the phenolic spice flavors from Belgian yeast with a touch of fruitiness. Nutmeg, mace, etc. are reasonable descriptors. As the volume goes up it gets more fruit and less spice. At pretty high volume it is like apple pie filling mixed with a little peach cobbler filling. High percentage rye whiskey (approaching 100%) do a good job articulating those fruit flavors.

I suppose I could see how somebody would interpret those spice flavors as part of the bitterness of the beer. I could see that interpreted as the kind of herbal, woody note I get from hop bitterness sometimes.

[erockrph]

I wonder if there is some kind of taste receptor thing going on with rye.
I find it to be, while not quite the opposite, at least a counterpoint to both bitterness and spiciness. I use rye malt in recipes frequently to add a sort of viscous or full mouthfeel that I think counteracts bitterness. I use it in low abv/ low carb ipa to make up for the lack of body from a higher gravity or crystal malt. I think the combination of rye malt and wy1450 is the secret sauce in making Denny’s Rye IPA such a smooth drinker as it creates a counterpoint to the hops.
I would like to know, as someone who doesn’t detect the “spice” to know what they mean. Hot like Chile pepper or black pepper? Cumin? Ginger? Mace or nutmeg?
Could it be confirmation bias because rye is associated with rye bread and therefore caraway?

I suspect, at least in this country, what most people think of as the flavor of rye is caraway because of bread.

I brew with rye a fair amount and the flavor changes as it becomes a larger portion of the grain bill. In lower amounts it is "spicy" which I don't think is a great descriptor. It is closer to the phenolic spice flavors from Belgian yeast with a touch of fruitiness. Nutmeg, mace, etc. are reasonable descriptors. As the volume goes up it gets more fruit and less spice. At pretty high volume it is like apple pie filling mixed with a little peach cobbler filling. High percentage rye whiskey (approaching 100%) do a good job articulating those fruit flavors.

I suppose I could see how somebody would interpret those spice flavors as part of the bitterness of the beer. I could see that interpreted as the kind of herbal, woody note I get from hop bitterness sometimes.

A lot of this resonates with me. I use rye quite a bit when I bake bread, but I hate caraway so i never use it. To me the "spiciness" of rye reminds me of the husky fruitiness of a fresh cracked black peppercorn minus the heat. I get that in rye beer and rye whiskey as well.

I could see that flavor synergizing with hop bitterness to some, especially when a beer is young.