[goose]

I wonder if there is some kind of taste receptor thing going on with rye.
I find it to be, while not quite the opposite, at least a counterpoint to both bitterness and spiciness. I use rye malt in recipes frequently to add a sort of viscous or full mouthfeel that I think counteracts bitterness. I use it in low abv/ low carb ipa to make up for the lack of body from a higher gravity or crystal malt. I think the combination of rye malt and wy1450 is the secret sauce in making Denny’s Rye IPA such a smooth drinker as it creates a counterpoint to the hops.
I would like to know, as someone who doesn’t detect the “spice” to know what they mean. Hot like Chile pepper or black pepper? Cumin? Ginger? Mace or nutmeg?
Could it be confirmation bias because rye is associated with rye bread and therefore caraway?

I suspect, at least in this country, what most people think of as the flavor of rye is caraway because of bread.

I brew with rye a fair amount and the flavor changes as it becomes a larger portion of the grain bill. In lower amounts it is "spicy" which I don't think is a great descriptor. It is closer to the phenolic spice flavors from Belgian yeast with a touch of fruitiness. Nutmeg, mace, etc. are reasonable descriptors. As the volume goes up it gets more fruit and less spice. At pretty high volume it is like apple pie filling mixed with a little peach cobbler filling. High percentage rye whiskey (approaching 100%) do a good job articulating those fruit flavors.

I suppose I could see how somebody would interpret those spice flavors as part of the bitterness of the beer. I could see that interpreted as the kind of herbal, woody note I get from hop bitterness sometimes.

A lot of this resonates with me. I use rye quite a bit when I bake bread, but I hate caraway so i never use it. To me the "spiciness" of rye reminds me of the husky fruitiness of a fresh cracked black peppercorn minus the heat. I get that in rye beer and rye whiskey as well.

I could see that flavor synergizing with hop bitterness to some, especially when a beer is young.

I too get notes of pepper from rye and could see where it could be confused with adding additional bitterness to the beer.  But everyone's palate is different.  Case in point, although I have trained myself to perceive diacetyl from the slickness it adds to the beer, I am pretty taste blind to it.

[Megary]

Not to harp on it, but I guess my hang-up is:

16% Rye = "Much Higher" perceived bitterness

Just doesn't seem like enough Rye to make that big of a difference.  Not saying that isn't the issue, it certainly can be.  I just wouldn't bet the farm.

[denny]

Not to harp on it, but I guess my hang-up is:

16% Rye = "Much Higher" perceived bitterness

Just doesn't seem like enough Rye to make that big of a difference.  Not saying that isn't the issue, it certainly can be.  I just wouldn't bet the farm.

I would agree with you if I could see any other explanation based on the facts we've been given. Curious to hear what you think it could be.

[Cliffs]

Not to harp on it, but I guess my hang-up is:

16% Rye = "Much Higher" perceived bitterness

Just doesn't seem like enough Rye to make that big of a difference.  Not saying that isn't the issue, it certainly can be.  I just wouldn't bet the farm.

I know it isnt a ton of rye, but its literally the only thing different about this recipe that I've brewed many times before.

[denny]

Not to harp on it, but I guess my hang-up is:

16% Rye = "Much Higher" perceived bitterness

Just doesn't seem like enough Rye to make that big of a difference.  Not saying that isn't the issue, it certainly can be.  I just wouldn't bet the farm.

I know it isnt a ton of rye, but its literally the only thing different about this recipe that I've brewed many times before.

I can definitely detect 16% rye in my Rye IPA.  It has the same kind of lingering effect that you describe.

[Megary]

Not to harp on it, but I guess my hang-up is:

16% Rye = "Much Higher" perceived bitterness

Just doesn't seem like enough Rye to make that big of a difference.  Not saying that isn't the issue, it certainly can be.  I just wouldn't bet the farm.

I would agree with you if I could see any other explanation based on the facts we've been given. Curious to hear what you think it could be.

I have no idea what it could be.  The OP says, beyond all doubt, the only difference between the 2 beers is the Rye. So, I guess it's the Rye.  I'm not dying on this hill.   

Not that this has anything to do with the OP and the Scottish Ale, but interestingly, Brulosophy did an experiment that is on-point to this conversation.  And they did find a difference between a beer made with Rye and one with not.  No mention of increased bitterness, but reading between the lines, I can see where one can get "spicy" from Rye.

https://brulosophy.com/2018/10/15/the-rye-malt-effect-exbeeriment-results/

[Cliffs]

Not to harp on it, but I guess my hang-up is:

16% Rye = "Much Higher" perceived bitterness

Just doesn't seem like enough Rye to make that big of a difference.  Not saying that isn't the issue, it certainly can be.  I just wouldn't bet the farm.

I know it isnt a ton of rye, but its literally the only thing different about this recipe that I've brewed many times before.

I can definitely detect 16% rye in my Rye IPA.  It has the same kind of lingering effect that you describe.

glad to know this. Its a lingering bitterness on the finish, not unpleasant, just not expected.

[denny]

Not to harp on it, but I guess my hang-up is:

16% Rye = "Much Higher" perceived bitterness

Just doesn't seem like enough Rye to make that big of a difference.  Not saying that isn't the issue, it certainly can be.  I just wouldn't bet the farm.

I know it isnt a ton of rye, but its literally the only thing different about this recipe that I've brewed many times before.

I can definitely detect 16% rye in my Rye IPA.  It has the same kind of lingering effect that you describe.

glad to know this. Its a lingering bitterness on the finish, not unpleasant, just not expected.

Bitterness or dryness?

[Cliffs]

Not to harp on it, but I guess my hang-up is:

16% Rye = "Much Higher" perceived bitterness

Just doesn't seem like enough Rye to make that big of a difference.  Not saying that isn't the issue, it certainly can be.  I just wouldn't bet the farm.

I know it isnt a ton of rye, but its literally the only thing different about this recipe that I've brewed many times before.

I can definitely detect 16% rye in my Rye IPA.  It has the same kind of lingering effect that you describe.

glad to know this. Its a lingering bitterness on the finish, not unpleasant, just not expected.

Bitterness or dryness?

bitterness, tbh, it tastes slightly fuller bodied than it normally does, although not to a great extent.

[kgs]

Not to harp on it, but I guess my hang-up is:

16% Rye = "Much Higher" perceived bitterness

Just doesn't seem like enough Rye to make that big of a difference.  Not saying that isn't the issue, it certainly can be.  I just wouldn't bet the farm.

I know it isnt a ton of rye, but its literally the only thing different about this recipe that I've brewed many times before.

I can definitely detect 16% rye in my Rye IPA.  It has the same kind of lingering effect that you describe.

glad to know this. Its a lingering bitterness on the finish, not unpleasant, just not expected.

Bitterness or dryness?

bitterness, tbh, it tastes slightly fuller bodied than it normally does, although not to a great extent.

The first thing I thought was "taste receptors?" and the second was that this sounds like an interesting brewing experiment. I definitely pick up the peppery quality of rye whether I'm brewing or baking with it.