Author Topic: Won't Be Long . . .  (Read 3684 times)

Offline majorvices

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2010, 08:41:50 AM »
The "real" kegs are worth something as scrap though... they're going to be literally throwing these plastic ones away!

Just what we need, more trash for our "disposable throwaway society"

Well, here's something to think about. The energy costs and caustic used to clean kegs may even out any environmental impacts of these being "disposable". Also, a low end keg cleaner starts at around 6K and an automatic, 3 bay one starts at around 15K. Not to mention man hours it takes to clean kegs. It is a very attractive option to have kegs ready to fill, depending on the price.

Personally I can;t get their stupid heavy-ass sight to load on my slow-ass dial-up.
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2010, 08:15:55 PM »
Everyone tries to justify "disposable" as being environmentally friendly and it's always BS. Dig into the real details and reusable is better, 99% of the time.

Offline majorvices

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2010, 05:50:31 AM »
I don't see where I said anything was "environmentally friendly" - I said that it "may" even out when you factor in the amount of energy used to clean kegs and the amount of caustic used. It may not when you factor in the energy to recycle or manufacture. I don't really know. I'm not sticking up for one way or the other, just offering up a different viewpoint others may not have thought about. Keg washing is certainly not "environmentally friendly". Nor is beer brewing for that matter.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 06:28:44 AM by majorvices »
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Offline hokerer

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2010, 08:04:18 AM »
I don't see where I said anything was "environmentally friendly" - I said that it "may" even out

Little disingenuous there, don't you think  :)

Cleaning, caustic, heck, even throw in the return transportation costs and, like he said, 99 times out of 100 "reuse" is still gonna beat "recycle" hands down. 
Joe

Offline majorvices

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2010, 08:19:24 AM »
I don't see where I said anything was "environmentally friendly" - I said that it "may" even out

Little disingenuous there, don't you think  :)

Uhm. No. I don't. In fact, throwing out a generic term such as "99 times out of 100" is what seems disingenuous to me.  ;)

One of you two figure it out on paper and show me some figures. Just throwing out "99 times out of 100" over these here interwebs just isn't convincing enough for me.

Regardless, I'm just playing the devil's advocate. In reality I am a big proponent of bringing back returnable bottles and am trying to figure out a way to do this at my own brewery. But I am not closing my mind to any option that would keep me from having to wash kegs at this point. Understand this doesn't mean I am buying them or even advocating. Only considering. High horses be damned.   :P
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 08:32:32 AM by majorvices »
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Offline hokerer

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2010, 08:36:23 AM »
Uhm. No. I don't. In fact, throwing out a generic term such as "99 times out of 100" is what seems disingenuous to me.  ;)

Touche' , point awarded :)

And, no thanks, not gonna do that paper analysis
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Offline beerocd

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2010, 09:49:53 AM »
I got forty 1/6th bbls and eight 1/2 bbls. I think the 1/6th bbls were about 80 bucks a piece. They come with a 3 year warranty that they won't leak.

But aren't they "one way" packaging? What's with the 3 year warranty? If you're reusing - aren't you still washing same as stainless? And as one way packaging - how much more does your beer need to cost compared to the micro down the street that will most likely get their keg back for reuse?
Just trying to see if the economics really do work out on this.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2010, 10:02:07 AM »
No, you misunderstand me, perhaps I wasn't clear or maybe you are combing two separate topics in this thread. The plastic kegs I posted are reusable kegs made to withstand the same riggers as stainless. They are not disposable. Actually they have been in use in breweries for a few years now and they are just now starting to get them to work "leak free". There are some people who think that these plastic kegs are what are going to become the replacement for stainless. Much cheaper and much less likely to be stolen. My only reason to include this snippet in a "won't be long" thread.

I hadn't heard of the disposable kegs before this thread. I currently don't own any disposable kegs and have no immediate plans to own any, but I am interested in looking into them.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 11:29:17 AM by majorvices »
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2010, 11:28:23 AM »
I would imagine that many of the big breweries use high pressure steam to clean their SS kegs. While it does take energy to generate the steam it's nothing compared to the energy to make new plastic ones. It'll NEVER even out.

Offline majorvices

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2010, 11:36:56 AM »
Either steam, or 180 degree water. Plus caustic. Plus sanitizer. Plus rinse water. Plus energy to move them from location to location. You may be right - but like I said, I'd need to see the #s before I could be swayed one way or another. I would assume that it would cost more energy to make and recycle the disposable kegs. But how much more? And if measures are created to cut back on the amount of caustic going directly into the local water way do the benefits outweigh the negatives? What about man power needed to run the equipment to clean the kegs? Factor in all the kegs that annually come up missing or damaged and that have to be replaced anyway. There's all kinds of factors that would need to be considered. Someone show me the numbers. That's all I'm saying.
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Offline beerocd

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2010, 11:37:03 AM »
No, you misunderstand me, perhaps I wasn't clear or maybe you are combing two separate topics in this thread. The plastic kegs I posted are reusable kegs made to withstand the same riggers as stainless. They are not disposable. Actually they have been in use in breweries for a few years now and they are just now starting to get them to work "leak free". There are some people who think that these plastic kegs are what are going to become the replacement for stainless. Much cheaper and much less likely to be stolen. My only reason to include this snippet in a "won't be long" thread.

I hadn't heard of the disposable kegs before this thread. I currently don't own any disposable kegs and have no immediate plans to own any, but I am interested in looking into them.

I think the problem was the thread hadn't gone off track quite yet - so I got lulled into a false sense of continuity of the topic.
To the "green" people" couldn't you just stop drinking beer - and take care of this problem at the root cause?
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2010, 12:15:33 PM »
I'm not sure you would have to use anything besides high pressure steam to clean and sanitize the kegs, provided they're SS.

I couldn't possibly show you any numbers, nor would I want to spend the time to do so. However, common logic says that cleaning/reusing kegs is cheaper and environmentally more friendly.

Offline majorvices

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2010, 01:03:29 PM »
I personally have never heard of a keg cleaner than only used steam. All stainless kegs at least need to be passivated once with acid. And they need to be rinsed. The ones I have seen use steam, caustic and sanitizer.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 01:06:29 PM by majorvices »
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2010, 01:25:17 PM »
Even if caustic is used for cleaning, it pales in comparison to the chemicals used to produce the plastic parts for disposable kegs. If disposable was really better, we'd all be eating on paper plates and drinking from plastic cups.

Offline nicneufeld

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Re: Won't Be Long . . .
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2010, 01:28:04 PM »
I couldn't possibly show you any numbers, nor would I want to spend the time to do so. However, common logic says that cleaning/reusing kegs is cheaper and environmentally more friendly.

Without numbers, I don't really see why common logic would determine such.  Unless you have numbers on what sort of energy is actually used in these areas, the only standard you have to judge by is your own feelings on the matter, which will vary widely from person to person and be far from "common".

No heat mead and wine brewing may be the "greenest" of all!  Now if your mead actually IS green, then you might want to review your sanitation processes.