Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: Candi Syrup Substitute  (Read 4796 times)

Offline fredthecat

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1970
Re: Candi Syrup Substitute
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2023, 03:15:41 pm »
ok, so on the topic of homemade "candi syrup" and sugars

Im interested in using some, but what will i get from it? i tried googling even on other forums and couldnt find a flavour profile especially homemade invert ie. cook it in the oven at 240F for 2 hours

Could be dangerous, I never found where that was explained.

yeah, i err on the side of caution when it comes to heat/fire/burns. me? im not going to try this, since what people are saying is that the long-process dark inverts are not bringing the same flavour equivalent as candi syrup (alkalized+amino acids creating mellanoidin flavours).

related to oven+heat+cookware.

just a few weeks ago had a pork roast that had been in the oven cooking on a rack resting on a glass-pyrex cooking tray for about 4 hours, took it out to rest at the end. noticed some burnt juice stuff at the bottom and had the thought "ill add some water to start getting rid of that mess now".

it exploded instantly and im really lucky none of the glass shards hit me. as in violently exploded. crazy.

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 10698
  • Milford, MI
Re: Candi Syrup Substitute
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2023, 08:50:34 pm »
ok, so on the topic of homemade "candi syrup" and sugars

Im interested in using some, but what will i get from it? i tried googling even on other forums and couldnt find a flavour profile especially homemade invert ie. cook it in the oven at 240F for 2 hours

Could be dangerous, I never found where that was explained.

yeah, i err on the side of caution when it comes to heat/fire/burns. me? im not going to try this, since what people are saying is that the long-process dark inverts are not bringing the same flavour equivalent as candi syrup (alkalized+amino acids creating mellanoidin flavours).

related to oven+heat+cookware.

just a few weeks ago had a pork roast that had been in the oven cooking on a rack resting on a glass-pyrex cooking tray for about 4 hours, took it out to rest at the end. noticed some burnt juice stuff at the bottom and had the thought "ill add some water to start getting rid of that mess now".

it exploded instantly and im really lucky none of the glass shards hit me. as in violently exploded. crazy.

I've done the oven method at least 4 times, using an enameled Dutch Oven. It works. I've read we bought about the process to know that one doesn't add water to 240⁰F Sugar, it will flash boil in an instant. Let it cool before adding water. Wear protective gear. Don't pour the hot sugar into glass jars, let it cool.

The flavors between invert sugars and the Candi Sugars may be different, but the flavors of the British ales and Belgian beers are also different.
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline chumley

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1231
Re: Candi Syrup Substitute
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2023, 02:10:42 pm »
Great time for me to read this thread, as I've been itching to brew a dubbel, but am out of dark candi syrup. I do have Becker's Invert #3 in hand, so I am going to go with that, some Special B, and a touch of chocolate wheat for color. Wish me luck.

Offline fredthecat

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1970
Re: Candi Syrup Substitute
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2023, 06:33:00 pm »
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/20-lb-of-sugar-and-a-jar-of-yeast-nutrient.114837/

thoughts on this, i know its a really old one but i noticed it as a bookmark I had.

does anyone have experience with this DAP+ sugar method?

I know the new one involves small amounts of food grade lime/lye + DME + sugar - but i honestly havent been able to find food grade lye.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27252
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Candi Syrup Substitute
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2023, 07:56:48 am »
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/20-lb-of-sugar-and-a-jar-of-yeast-nutrient.114837/

thoughts on this, i know its a really old one but i noticed it as a bookmark I had.

does anyone have experience with this DAP+ sugar method?

I know the new one involves small amounts of food grade lime/lye + DME + sugar - but i honestly havent been able to find food grade lye.

Haven't made it,  but I've tasted versions others made. Nothing like commercial candi syrup.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline fredthecat

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1970
Re: Candi Syrup Substitute
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2023, 10:27:11 am »
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/20-lb-of-sugar-and-a-jar-of-yeast-nutrient.114837/

thoughts on this, i know its a really old one but i noticed it as a bookmark I had.

does anyone have experience with this DAP+ sugar method?

I know the new one involves small amounts of food grade lime/lye + DME + sugar - but i honestly havent been able to find food grade lye.

Haven't made it,  but I've tasted versions others made. Nothing like commercial candi syrup.

interesting, as in just different or lacking the flavour development? did you mean just the DAP + sugar version?

is the lye + DME + sugar one any good or do you have thoughts on most flavourful sugars other than candi syrup ($$) ?

Offline ynotbrusum

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4903
Re: Candi Syrup Substitute
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2023, 04:25:59 am »
Invert sugar, perhaps?
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27252
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Candi Syrup Substitute
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2023, 08:17:02 am »
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/20-lb-of-sugar-and-a-jar-of-yeast-nutrient.114837/

thoughts on this, i know its a really old one but i noticed it as a bookmark I had.

does anyone have experience with this DAP+ sugar method?

I know the new one involves small amounts of food grade lime/lye + DME + sugar - but i honestly havent been able to find food grade lye.

Haven't made it,  but I've tasted versions others made. Nothing like commercial candi syrup.

interesting, as in just different or lacking the flavour development? did you mean just the DAP + sugar version?

is the lye + DME + sugar one any good or do you have thoughts on most flavourful sugars other than candi syrup ($$) ?

They just didn't have the same flavor. IMO, there are no substitutes for D90, 180, and 240.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27252
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Candi Syrup Substitute
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2023, 08:18:16 am »
Invert sugar, perhaps?

That's basically what the homemade ones are. Probably OK for British styles, but nowhere what you need for Belgians.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7824
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: Candi Syrup Substitute
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2023, 08:18:50 am »
I haven't made any of the DIY Candi Syrup/Invert Sugar recipes out there, but I've used the commercial versions extensively and they just aren't the same. Invert sugars are very toffee/caramel like, while Candi Syrups have more dark fruit (fig/plum/raisin). Even the D-45 Candi Syrup, which is close to an Invert #2 in color, has a different flavor to it. There has to be a process or ingredient difference between the two. If I had to guess, it seems like Candi Syrup has a bit of scorching or maybe oxidation to it to generate those different flavors.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline ynotbrusum

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4903
Re: Candi Syrup Substitute
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2023, 09:53:32 am »
Invert sugar, perhaps?

That's basically what the homemade ones are. Probably OK for British styles, but nowhere what you need for Belgians.

Agreed on flavor authenticity from candi syrup - but I thought the poster was last looking into something other than commercial candi syrup;  sometimes it just isn't worth it to not get the real thing....but for example, on a Belgian Tripel one might want to use table sugar, if savings is the goal.
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27252
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Candi Syrup Substitute
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2023, 10:57:22 am »
Invert sugar, perhaps?

That's basically what the homemade ones are. Probably OK for British styles, but nowhere what you need for Belgians.

Agreed on flavor authenticity from candi syrup - but I thought the poster was last looking into something other than commercial candi syrup;  sometimes it just isn't worth it to not get the real thing....but for example, on a Belgian Tripel one might want to use table sugar, if savings is the goal.

Yes, the OP was asking about Simplicity in a BGSA, and in that case table sugar is perfect for a aub. But the, as these things do, we went off on a tangent about candi syrup in general.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline fredthecat

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1970
Re: Candi Syrup Substitute
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2023, 06:36:20 pm »
I haven't made any of the DIY Candi Syrup/Invert Sugar recipes out there, but I've used the commercial versions extensively and they just aren't the same. Invert sugars are very toffee/caramel like, while Candi Syrups have more dark fruit (fig/plum/raisin). Even the D-45 Candi Syrup, which is close to an Invert #2 in color, has a different flavor to it. There has to be a process or ingredient difference between the two. If I had to guess, it seems like Candi Syrup has a bit of scorching or maybe oxidation to it to generate those different flavors.

the idea is raising the pH (i think the science is more complicated than that, but functionally this is what people do to make it - i think) to promote melanoidin development without burning/scorching the sugar. im sure lime (the ph raising agent in this case - purportedly) has had use in europe for cooking/baking for a long time ie. pretzels and giving them that unique flavour. the simplification of leavening through baking soda/powder and industrially produced consistent yeast is very new, and i guess a variety of things were used even just 150 years or so ago including ammonium bicarbonate had the common place that sodium bicarbonate has now - but resulting in a different and apparently pleasant in some cases consistency and flavour.

so i think its entirely possible a factor in making "REAL OFFICIAL TM" candi sugar is/was raising the pH with lime to make those flavours people noticed were better if this process was done.

even my paying ~6.29 (for D90) up to $7.89 for the darker syrups per lb i do find definitely palatable since i relaly, really dont want to handle cooking a large quantity of sugar, AND playing with a chemical and adding water and things to it. as well as the time involved. but im definitely still interested in it.