[Megary]

Well...whatever.

But Kevin Davey is the one who coined the term, so if you are going to use some definition, use that one.

He's one person who claims to have invented it. If his definition was gospel, there wouldn't be so much debate about what it is.

??

Not sure I understand.  I'm curious as to the other definitions for this style that you have found and how far from Davey's they stray.  With all due respect to Palmer, the Cold IPA's I have had taste nothing like Cream Ales (ABV, bitterness, aroma...all vastly different).  Unless, of course, there are other definitions for Cream Ale that I'm not aware of. 

[dbeechum]

He's one person who claims to have invented it. If his definition was gospel, there wouldn't be so much debate about what it is.

??

Not sure I understand.  I'm curious as to the other definitions for this style that you have found and how far from Davey's they stray.  With all due respect to Palmer, the Cold IPA's I have had taste nothing like Cream Ales (ABV, bitterness, aroma...all vastly different).  Unless, of course, there are other definitions for Cream Ale that I'm not aware of.

I think this is called "welcome to the uncomfortable birth of a style as designed by playing a game of Telephone".

Kevin definitely gets the credit for the name - now everything else is going to take time to shake out in terms of what generally gets meant across the beer world - and right now it's wibbley as hell and doesn't even have the benefit of "Brut IPA" by design requiring enzymes.

[denny]

He's one person who claims to have invented it. If his definition was gospel, there wouldn't be so much debate about what it is.

??

Not sure I understand.  I'm curious as to the other definitions for this style that you have found and how far from Davey's they stray.  With all due respect to Palmer, the Cold IPA's I have had taste nothing like Cream Ales (ABV, bitterness, aroma...all vastly different).  Unless, of course, there are other definitions for Cream Ale that I'm not aware of.

I think this is called "welcome to the uncomfortable birth of a style as designed by playing a game of Telephone".

Kevin definitely gets the credit for the name - now everything else is going to take time to shake out in terms of what generally gets meant across the beer world - and right now it's wibbley as hell and doesn't even have the benefit of "Brut IPA" by design requiring enzymes.

Annie is writing an article on it.  She started a FB thread about it.  Amazing number of varied answers

[Megary]

He's one person who claims to have invented it. If his definition was gospel, there wouldn't be so much debate about what it is.

??

Not sure I understand.  I'm curious as to the other definitions for this style that you have found and how far from Davey's they stray.  With all due respect to Palmer, the Cold IPA's I have had taste nothing like Cream Ales (ABV, bitterness, aroma...all vastly different).  Unless, of course, there are other definitions for Cream Ale that I'm not aware of.

I think this is called "welcome to the uncomfortable birth of a style as designed by playing a game of Telephone".

Kevin definitely gets the credit for the name - now everything else is going to take time to shake out in terms of what generally gets meant across the beer world - and right now it's wibbley as hell and doesn't even have the benefit of "Brut IPA" by design requiring enzymes.

Annie is writing an article on it.  She started a FB thread about it.  Amazing number of varied answers

I'll be looking forward to her article.  Do you know if that will be for CB&B Magazine?  I know she is often featured there.

[denny]

He's one person who claims to have invented it. If his definition was gospel, there wouldn't be so much debate about what it is.

??

Not sure I understand.  I'm curious as to the other definitions for this style that you have found and how far from Davey's they stray.  With all due respect to Palmer, the Cold IPA's I have had taste nothing like Cream Ales (ABV, bitterness, aroma...all vastly different).  Unless, of course, there are other definitions for Cream Ale that I'm not aware of.

I think this is called "welcome to the uncomfortable birth of a style as designed by playing a game of Telephone".

Kevin definitely gets the credit for the name - now everything else is going to take time to shake out in terms of what generally gets meant across the beer world - and right now it's wibbley as hell and doesn't even have the benefit of "Brut IPA" by design requiring enzymes.

Annie is writing an article on it.  She started a FB thread about it.  Amazing number of varied answers

I'll be looking forward to her article.  Do you know if that will be for CB&B Magazine?  I know she is often featured there.

Nope, don't know.

[BrewBama]

So we once again have one pers defining style. Kinda like Italian Pils.

Q: are styles based on one guy’s invention or does it develop over time from a region?

[dbeechum]

Q: are styles based on one guy’s invention or does it develop over time from a region?

yes.

Cheekiness aside - for the stories that we know (both "historical" and present day) - people like to assign an inventor to a thing/trend. Whether or not there is one or if they get the right one. (Go look at all the claimants for Black IPA for a recent example)  Something pops up, the work of one or many, and then gets copied over and over - twisting this way and that way through different people's processes and different audience's tastes and out the other side of that great process of digestion pops out something that may or may not be cohesively a style.

[chinaski]

In evolutionary biology, a similar debate exists between "lumpers versus splitters" with regard to classifying life- how different does something have to be to deserve a new name?  Splitters tend to want more distinct groups; lumpers like to keep groups a bit larger.  Neither point of view changes the existence of organisms- just how they are referred to.  There is, however, a body of scientists that accept/reject/change the names of living things.

Oh, and still like the cream ale analogy, even if it just describes the grist and some elements of the process.  So there.

[ynotbrusum]

A couple notes that from a BJCP perspective might fall in International Lager, but arguably could be separated as Japanese lagers and Canadian Lagers, if you want to parse the styles a bit.  I note the differences and consider them different  styles in my brew house….

[waltsmalt]

Just wanted to say I really enjoyed the two Q&A episodes.  Thanks.  A lot of great questions and answers.  I'll say one of the biggest takeaways from the show for me was about keeping it fun.  I think Denny said it, and it always reminds me to not take myself so seriously when it comes to brewing. 

[denny]

Just wanted to say I really enjoyed the two Q&A episodes.  Thanks.  A lot of great questions and answers.  I'll say one of the biggest takeaways from the show for me was about keeping it fun.  I think Denny said it, and it always reminds me to not take myself so seriously when it comes to brewing.

Thanks so much! Glad you found it valuable and enjoyable.

[fredthecat]

A couple notes that from a BJCP perspective might fall in International Lager, but arguably could be separated as Japanese lagers and Canadian Lagers, if you want to parse the styles a bit.  I note the differences and consider them different  styles in my brew house….

japanese, absolutely. not even getting into happoshus. the big names at the supermarket have a crazy number of varieties of industrial lager happoshu that presumably go something like 100% barley malt, down to 80, 70, 50% and then super cheap stuff mostly adjuncts. and then their high gravity beers of similar grades. im just drawing from memory but i remember something like that. eventually korea started making these non-malted, just enzymatically destroyed barley/rice/other sugar drinks that imitated beer.

https://modernseoul.org/2017/07/16/filite-the-new-cheap-beer-from-hite/

overall memory of mainstream japanese beer was actually good, mainstream korean beer was bad but slowly getting better, but lots of inconsistency between brews. chinese beer has some weird tax thing i presume(err guess?) where the standard ABV is 3.6% or a bit less, so its weird because the beer was generally lighter than a light beer and ranged from super industrial-effluent to not too bad for a very cheap beer. im sure the state of beer in china has changed a fair bit since my experience there.

[purduekenn]

I really liked the two Q&A episodes. Very good! I especially like it when you guys joke around. And it was nice to have John on the show too.
Keep up the great podcasts!

[denny]

I really liked the two Q&A episodes. Very good! I especially like it when you guys joke around. And it was nice to have John on the show too.
Keep up the great podcasts!

Thank you so much! We feel like knowledge goes best with humor.

[erockrph]

Here's another explanation from Davey, maybe a bit more in depth.

https://newschoolbeer.com/home/2021/2/what-is-a-cold-ipa-wayfinder-kevin-davey-definition

Thanks for sharing that. If this is the definition of a Cold IPA, then I think I can be on board with this. I don't believe in defining styles by process alone. There should be specific defining characteristics that impact flavor/aroma/body/etc. which give the drinker some kind of expectations. The use of adjuncts and a clean fermentation (minimal esters/sulfur) sound like something concrete I can compare the style against if I brew/drink one.

It's an interesting thought that SO2 production by lager yeast may impact hop character. I have noticed that certain yeast strains (both lager and ale) seem to lead to reduced hop character compared to my expectations. I never noticed a correlation with sulfur production, but to be honest I've never taken that particular factor under consideration. I'll have to pay closer attention to that in the future.