[denny]

The 3 Stooges answer your questions

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/2023/02/03/episode-169-questions-with-john/#more-2093

We asked you for your questions and did you come through. In this first of two parts, Denny and Drew are joined by Mr. How-to-Brew himself, John Palmer to trawl the stormy seas of homebrew questions in search of our white whales. (Don’t forget you can always ask us questions at podcast@experimentalbrew.com

[hopfenundmalz]

Denny,
I have to say that I was very surprised that John said no one is doing LODO brewing. They do it in Germany, in the medium to large modern breweries. No one there uses NMeta to remove to O2, that is not RHG compliant. What is RHG compliant is the use of stripping column to remove the O2 by bubbling C02 up through the water. I've seen the water treatment room at Schönram where this is done.

My 2¢ is that you if you want to brew the best example of the style, use ingredients and processes that make the style in its home. One needs to brew differently for Lambics than for Light German lagers.

[denny]

Denny,
I have to say that I was very surprised that John said no one is doing LODO brewing. They do it in Germany, in the medium to large modern breweries. No one there uses NMeta to remove to O2, that is not RHG compliant. What is RHG compliant is the use of stripping column to remove the O2 by bubbling C02 up through the water. I've seen the water treatment room at Schönram where this is done.

My 2¢ is that you if you want to brew the best example of the style, use ingredients and processes that make the style in its home. One needs to brew differently for Lambics than for Light German lagers.

I thought of you when he said that

[hopfenundmalz]

Denny,
I have to say that I was very surprised that John said no one is doing LODO brewing. They do it in Germany, in the medium to large modern breweries. No one there uses NMeta to remove to O2, that is not RHG compliant. What is RHG compliant is the use of stripping column to remove the O2 by bubbling C02 up through the water. I've seen the water treatment room at Schönram where this is done.

My 2¢ is that you if you want to brew the best example of the style, use ingredients and processes that make the style in its home. One needs to brew differently for Lambics than for Light German lagers.

I thought of you when he said that

The smaller family owned breweries with old brewing systems don't brew that way, as it is not financially possible to invest in the equipment. I asked a guy about hot side and Low Oxygen brewing. He said they are taught about it in brewing school. His system is from 1970, and not set up for it. What he does, and recommends, is fill from the bottom and don't splash. He says some breweries that don't take any care are known for their house flavor. I've been to a few of those.

[denny]

Denny,
I have to say that I was very surprised that John said no one is doing LODO brewing. They do it in Germany, in the medium to large modern breweries. No one there uses NMeta to remove to O2, that is not RHG compliant. What is RHG compliant is the use of stripping column to remove the O2 by bubbling C02 up through the water. I've seen the water treatment room at Schönram where this is done.

My 2¢ is that you if you want to brew the best example of the style, use ingredients and processes that make the style in its home. One needs to brew differently for Lambics than for Light German lagers.

I thought of you when he said that

The smaller family owned breweries with old brewing systems don't brew that way, as it is not financially possible to invest in the equipment. I asked a guy about hot side and Low Oxygen brewing. He said they are taught about it in brewing school. His system is from 1970, and not set up for it. What he does, and recommends, is fill from the bottom and don't splash. He says some breweries that don't take any care are known for their house flavor. I've been to a few of those.

Sounds like his philosophy is kinda like mine....do the best you can, then don't worry about it.

[hopfenundmalz]

The small stay in business with a Brewery, Restaurant, and Hotel. They have to be pragmatic on what they do. 

[erockrph]

Denny, I'll be curious to hear what you think of using a late-boil acid addition in IPA's if you end up trying it out. I'm still dialing in my process, but I have really enjoyed the results so far. I've been handling this by adding citric acid with my dry hops, and it really brightens up the hop flavor in those beers.

[chinaski]

I thought John's comments about cold-IPA being a form of cream ale were good.  It's like a way to re-brand the cream ale to a younger crowd.  I have one in the fermenter and might not dry-hop it just to maintain a bit of cream ale heritage in it.

[denny]

I thought John's comments about cold-IPA being a form of cream ale were good.  It's like a way to re-brand the cream ale to a younger crowd.  I have one in the fermenter and might not dry-hop it just to maintain a bit of cream ale heritage in it.

John's definition is one of many I've heard. I'm still not certain what Cold IPA is.

[Megary]

I thought John's comments about cold-IPA being a form of cream ale were good.  It's like a way to re-brand the cream ale to a younger crowd.  I have one in the fermenter and might not dry-hop it just to maintain a bit of cream ale heritage in it.

John's definition is one of many I've heard. I'm still not certain what Cold IPA is.

This a great, quick read:
https://beerandbrewing.com/brewer-s-perspective-the-thinking-behind-cold-ipa/

The Elements of Cold IPA, According to Kevin Davey
The grist is based on American adjunct lagers: 20 to 40 percent rice or corn, mashed with all-American two-row pilsner malt. There should be no caramel malt. The finished beer should be incredibly dry, fermented to 82 to 88 percent apparent attenuation.

Lager yeast ferments the beer, but at relatively warmer temperatures, use faster-fermenting strains that produce low ester and low sulfur (such as Fermentis SafLager W-34/70). You can substitute clean-fermenting ale strains such as Chico, Kölsch, or California Common, as long as the sulfur and ester notes are low. “Cold IPA is a canvas for IPA hops,” Davey says.

Dry hops go in “warm” before fermentation is complete, during spunding or kräusening. “This achieves biotransformation while negating oxygen pickup,” Davey says.

The beer should be filtered to crystal clarity and well carbonated. “Cold IPA is the antithesis of New England–style IPA,” Davey says. —Joe Stange

Cold IPA Style Parameters
OG: 1.055–1.065 (13.5–16°P)
FG: 1.006–1.009 (1.6–2.4°P)
ABV: 6.4–7.9%
IBUs: 50–70
Color: 2.5–5 SRM

[erockrph]

I thought John's comments about cold-IPA being a form of cream ale were good.  It's like a way to re-brand the cream ale to a younger crowd.  I have one in the fermenter and might not dry-hop it just to maintain a bit of cream ale heritage in it.

John's definition is one of many I've heard. I'm still not certain what Cold IPA is.

This a great, quick read:
https://beerandbrewing.com/brewer-s-perspective-the-thinking-behind-cold-ipa/

The Elements of Cold IPA, According to Kevin Davey
The grist is based on American adjunct lagers: 20 to 40 percent rice or corn, mashed with all-American two-row pilsner malt. There should be no caramel malt. The finished beer should be incredibly dry, fermented to 82 to 88 percent apparent attenuation.

Lager yeast ferments the beer, but at relatively warmer temperatures, use faster-fermenting strains that produce low ester and low sulfur (such as Fermentis SafLager W-34/70). You can substitute clean-fermenting ale strains such as Chico, Kölsch, or California Common, as long as the sulfur and ester notes are low. “Cold IPA is a canvas for IPA hops,” Davey says.

Dry hops go in “warm” before fermentation is complete, during spunding or kräusening. “This achieves biotransformation while negating oxygen pickup,” Davey says.

The beer should be filtered to crystal clarity and well carbonated. “Cold IPA is the antithesis of New England–style IPA,” Davey says. —Joe Stange

Cold IPA Style Parameters
OG: 1.055–1.065 (13.5–16°P)
FG: 1.006–1.009 (1.6–2.4°P)
ABV: 6.4–7.9%
IBUs: 50–70
Color: 2.5–5 SRM

This is an unsatisfying definition for me. It seems to me that a Cold IPA is defined by a process, rather than a result. I've brewed a handful of beers over the years with similar grist and hops, a similar flavor/body/aroma, but using a clean ale yeast. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's still a duck if I brewed it warm with a clean ale yeast, right?

And I've brewed similar beers using lager yeasts over the years, but I just called them dry-hopped Pilsners. Not Italian Pilsners, IPL's or Cold IPA's. This seems like another superfluous style name to me. </getoffmylawn>

[denny]

The fact that there are so many definitions shows that no one knows. It's whatever the brewer wants it to be. For every person who says it's this, there's another one who says it's that.

[Megary]

Well...whatever.

But Kevin Davey is the one who coined the term, so if you are going to use some definition, use that one.

[denny]

Well...whatever.

But Kevin Davey is the one who coined the term, so if you are going to use some definition, use that one.

He's one person who claims to have invented it. If his definition was gospel, there wouldn't be so much debate about what it is.

[Megary]

I thought John's comments about cold-IPA being a form of cream ale were good.  It's like a way to re-brand the cream ale to a younger crowd.  I have one in the fermenter and might not dry-hop it just to maintain a bit of cream ale heritage in it.

John's definition is one of many I've heard. I'm still not certain what Cold IPA is.

This a great, quick read:
https://beerandbrewing.com/brewer-s-perspective-the-thinking-behind-cold-ipa/

The Elements of Cold IPA, According to Kevin Davey
The grist is based on American adjunct lagers: 20 to 40 percent rice or corn, mashed with all-American two-row pilsner malt. There should be no caramel malt. The finished beer should be incredibly dry, fermented to 82 to 88 percent apparent attenuation.

Lager yeast ferments the beer, but at relatively warmer temperatures, use faster-fermenting strains that produce low ester and low sulfur (such as Fermentis SafLager W-34/70). You can substitute clean-fermenting ale strains such as Chico, Kölsch, or California Common, as long as the sulfur and ester notes are low. “Cold IPA is a canvas for IPA hops,” Davey says.

Dry hops go in “warm” before fermentation is complete, during spunding or kräusening. “This achieves biotransformation while negating oxygen pickup,” Davey says.

The beer should be filtered to crystal clarity and well carbonated. “Cold IPA is the antithesis of New England–style IPA,” Davey says. —Joe Stange

Cold IPA Style Parameters
OG: 1.055–1.065 (13.5–16°P)
FG: 1.006–1.009 (1.6–2.4°P)
ABV: 6.4–7.9%
IBUs: 50–70
Color: 2.5–5 SRM

This is an unsatisfying definition for me. It seems to me that a Cold IPA is defined by a process, rather than a result. I've brewed a handful of beers over the years with similar grist and hops, a similar flavor/body/aroma, but using a clean ale yeast. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's still a duck if I brewed it warm with a clean ale yeast, right?

And I've brewed similar beers using lager yeasts over the years, but I just called them dry-hopped Pilsners. Not Italian Pilsners, IPL's or Cold IPA's. This seems like another superfluous style name to me. </getoffmylawn>

Here's another explanation from Davey, maybe a bit more in depth.

https://newschoolbeer.com/home/2021/2/what-is-a-cold-ipa-wayfinder-kevin-davey-definition