[denny]

As long as you pitch active, I imagine you will be fine. But with a 3L starter with 2 packets of dry yeast, you will have no yeast growth and you will deplete all of the yeast's reserves.

THIS. People forget that cell count is not the be all, end all.

[Fire Rooster]

Help me understand.

Lets say a starter is created with dry yeast using propper starter, wort, or DME, and runs it's course.
After yeast is done and sinks to the bottom, it is used for a batch of beer.

In another scenario the dry yeast is pitched directly into wort, and runs it's course.
After yeast is done and sinks to the bottom, it is used for a batch of beer.

What am I missing ?

Thanks

[majorvices]

Help me understand.

Lets say a starter is created with dry yeast using propper starter, wort, or DME, and runs it's course.
After yeast is done and sinks to the bottom, it is used for a batch of beer.

In another scenario the dry yeast is pitched directly into wort, and runs it's course.
After yeast is done and sinks to the bottom, it is used for a batch of beer.

What am I missing ?

Thanks

For the starter to grow mass, it must have enough volume for the yeast to replicate. If the volume is too small, they do not create mass. IN the case of liquid yeast, where the yeast are using their reserves while they are in the yeast package (storage), a starter may help replenish those reserves if the nutrients are right, the aeration is plentiful, and the starter is large enough.

In the case of dry yeast, the yeast are in a state of stasis where their reserves are already in tact. By making a starter for dry yeast, the yeast use their reserves when pitched into the starter. If the starter is too small, they cannot replenish those reserves after the fermentation has taken place. They are actually left less healthy than they were going in. To compound the problem, since the starter was too small, they weren't;t able to grow mass.

[denny]

Help me understand.

Lets say a starter is created with dry yeast using propper starter, wort, or DME, and runs it's course.
After yeast is done and sinks to the bottom, it is used for a batch of beer.

In another scenario the dry yeast is pitched directly into wort, and runs it's course.
After yeast is done and sinks to the bottom, it is used for a batch of beer.

What am I missing ?

Thanks

For the starter to grow mass, it must have enough volume for the yeast to replicate. If the volume is too small, they do not create mass. IN the case of liquid yeast, where the yeast are using their reserves while they are in the yeast package (storage), a starter may help replenish those reserves if the nutrients are right, the aeration is plentiful, and the starter is large enough.

In the case of dry yeast, the yeast are in a state of stasis where their reserves are already in tact. By making a starter for dry yeast, the yeast use their reserves when pitched into the starter. If the starter is too small, they cannot replenish those reserves after the fermentation has taken place. They are actually left less healthy than they were going in. To compound the problem, since the starter was too small, they weren't;t able to grow mass.

Excellent explanation.

[Fire Rooster]

Help me understand.

Lets say a starter is created with dry yeast using propper starter, wort, or DME, and runs it's course.
After yeast is done and sinks to the bottom, it is used for a batch of beer.

In another scenario the dry yeast is pitched directly into wort, and runs it's course.
After yeast is done and sinks to the bottom, it is used for a batch of beer.

What am I missing ?

Thanks

For the starter to grow mass, it must have enough volume for the yeast to replicate. If the volume is too small, they do not create mass. IN the case of liquid yeast, where the yeast are using their reserves while they are in the yeast package (storage), a starter may help replenish those reserves if the nutrients are right, the aeration is plentiful, and the starter is large enough.

In the case of dry yeast, the yeast are in a state of stasis where their reserves are already in tact. By making a starter for dry yeast, the yeast use their reserves when pitched into the starter. If the starter is too small, they cannot replenish those reserves after the fermentation has taken place. They are actually left less healthy than they were going in. To compound the problem, since the starter was too small, they weren't;t able to grow mass.

What's considered too small ?
Would 100 grams of DME, and 1 litre of water be too small for
5 gallons of 1.040 wort ?

Thanks

[majorvices]

It just depends on how much yeast. And in the case of liquid yeast, how many viable cells are available. 1 liter starter is p[robably too small for just about any pitch of yeast if your intend it to grow yeast. With the amount t of cells in todays packaging, you probably need to start with about 4L.

 But again, it depends on a lot of factor. As Denny alluded to earlier, health and viability are also extremely important. If your starter is too small you could be doing more harm than good by causing the yeast to use their internal reserves. Since liquid yeast already are using their reserves during g storage, a small starter could help to "energize" the yeast by giving them a sterol boost (if plenty of aeration and nutrients are included). But for dry yeast, you are probably damaging the yeast.

[denny]

Help me understand.

Lets say a starter is created with dry yeast using propper starter, wort, or DME, and runs it's course.
After yeast is done and sinks to the bottom, it is used for a batch of beer.

In another scenario the dry yeast is pitched directly into wort, and runs it's course.
After yeast is done and sinks to the bottom, it is used for a batch of beer.

What am I missing ?

Thanks

For the starter to grow mass, it must have enough volume for the yeast to replicate. If the volume is too small, they do not create mass. IN the case of liquid yeast, where the yeast are using their reserves while they are in the yeast package (storage), a starter may help replenish those reserves if the nutrients are right, the aeration is plentiful, and the starter is large enough.

In the case of dry yeast, the yeast are in a state of stasis where their reserves are already in tact. By making a starter for dry yeast, the yeast use their reserves when pitched into the starter. If the starter is too small, they cannot replenish those reserves after the fermentation has taken place. They are actually left less healthy than they were going in. To compound the problem, since the starter was too small, they weren't;t able to grow mass.

What's considered too small ?
Would 100 grams of DME, and 1 litre of water be too small for
5 gallons of 1.040 wort ?

Thanks

Way too small. A 5 gal batch would be about right.

[HopDen]

@Majorvices
Thanks for the great info and taking the time to add your input! Your input has helped me tremendously! Cheers!!

[majorvices]

HopDen, you are more than  welcome. After all, I learned this stuff from asking questions on forums too! (Plus books and podcasts, etc.).

[Fire Rooster]

@Majorvices
Thanks for the great info and taking the time to add your input! Your input has helped me tremendously! Cheers!!

+1

[HopDen]

Follow-up: Pitched yeast at 1:30 Saturday afternoon. I didn't have any signs of active fermentation after 24 hrs. Checked today at 6:30 and fermentation is underway. Blowoff is very active.

[Red over White]

Help me understand.

Lets say a starter is created with dry yeast using propper starter, wort, or DME, and runs it's course.
After yeast is done and sinks to the bottom, it is used for a batch of beer.

In another scenario the dry yeast is pitched directly into wort, and runs it's course.
After yeast is done and sinks to the bottom, it is used for a batch of beer.

What am I missing ?

Thanks

For the starter to grow mass, it must have enough volume for the yeast to replicate. If the volume is too small, they do not create mass. IN the case of liquid yeast, where the yeast are using their reserves while they are in the yeast package (storage), a starter may help replenish those reserves if the nutrients are right, the aeration is plentiful, and the starter is large enough.

In the case of dry yeast, the yeast are in a state of stasis where their reserves are already in tact. By making a starter for dry yeast, the yeast use their reserves when pitched into the starter. If the starter is too small, they cannot replenish those reserves after the fermentation has taken place. They are actually left less healthy than they were going in. To compound the problem, since the starter was too small, they weren't;t able to grow mass.

Can you explain a little more about the above?

The liquid yeast are starting in sub optimal condition in a starter and are replenishing themselves. The dry yeast are starting in optimal condition, why are they diminished in the same conditions.

If the dry yeast starter is to small as in the above explanation and no growth occurs, how much of the reserves were used and how are they not able to replenish themselves if the nutrients are right & the aeration is plentiful. Wouldn't this really just create a incredibly healthy cell count with no growth.

[denny]

There's a lot more to pitching than cell count

[majorvices]

The liquid yeast are starting in sub optimal condition in a starter and are replenishing themselves. The dry yeast are starting in optimal condition, why are they diminished in the same conditions.

First off, if the liquid yeast is very fresh, a starter that is too small can also have negative effects on the yeast population. Also, the information was not meant to insinuate that the dry yeast were in "optimal" condition, only that their reserves are stored before they go into suspension. Liquid yeast are using their reserves (during storage) since they are not in stasis. The further the liquid yeast is from its package date, the more reserves they will have used, the more a starter will be necessary.

If you make a 5 gallon starter with a pitch of dry yeast, you will most certainly grow yeast. If you make a 1-2L starter with dry yeast, you might not have any growth since the dry yeast will simply use al their reserves, consume all the sugars and not replicate. But, again, with very fresh dry yeast--the exact same thing will happen.

I heard it described like this once by (I believe) Jamil Zainasheff: if you have 100 sheep, and an acre of grass, the sheep eat all the grass but there isn't enough food to feed all of them so some die off and there is very little procreation. But if you have 100 sheep on 100 acres of grass, the sheep have plenty to eat and as they graze they also procreate and their population grows as well.

What is important to understand is that this applies to all yeast pitches: the difference with dry yeast is that 100 sheep in a 1 acre lot are already fat and happy and not very hungry. Liquid yeast sheep may be super skinny and starving already dying off so the plot of grass may actually be just what they needed to start off a healthy population.

[Red over White]

The liquid yeast are starting in sub optimal condition in a starter and are replenishing themselves. The dry yeast are starting in optimal condition, why are they diminished in the same conditions.

First off, if the liquid yeast is very fresh, a starter that is too small can also have negative effects on the yeast population. Also, the information was not meant to insinuate that the dry yeast were in "optimal" condition, only that their reserves are stored before they go into suspension. Liquid yeast are using their reserves (during storage) since they are not in stasis. The further the liquid yeast is from its package date, the more reserves they will have used, the more a starter will be necessary.

If you make a 5 gallon starter with a pitch of dry yeast, you will most certainly grow yeast. If you make a 1-2L starter with dry yeast, you might not have any growth since the dry yeast will simply use al their reserves, consume all the sugars and not replicate. But, again, with very fresh dry yeast--the exact same thing will happen.

I heard it described like this once by (I believe) Jamil Zainasheff: if you have 100 sheep, and an acre of grass, the sheep eat all the grass but there isn't enough food to feed all of them so some die off and there is very little procreation. But if you have 100 sheep on 100 acres of grass, the sheep have plenty to eat and as they graze they also procreate and their population grows as well.

What is important to understand is that this applies to all yeast pitches: the difference with dry yeast is that 100 sheep in a 1 acre lot are already fat and happy and not very hungry. Liquid yeast sheep may be super skinny and starving already dying off so the plot of grass may actually be just what they needed to start off a healthy population.

I have never read about a starter having a negative impact on yeast. This quote is directly copy and pasted from Yeast by Chris and Jamil "The fundamental fact is that yeast cannot grow unless they have enough sugar and nutrients for each cell to divide. While the cells do not multiply much when the inoculation rate is this high, it can still benefit the existing cells. The takeup of sugar, nutrients, oxygen, and the production of compounds such as sterols, improve cell health. Starters rarely have a negative side; even if there is little yeast growth, a starter helps to revive yeast for fermentation by activating metabolism, and therefore fermentation starts faster."

Where can I read about a starter having detrimental effects on the yeast. I am not being incendiary at all, are there papers that you can point me to on this subject.