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Author Topic: My cider has a problem  (Read 1089 times)

Offline denny

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Re: My cider has a problem
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2023, 09:18:58 am »
I have been making cider from apples I grow, pick, press and ferment myself. Never have I or anyone else been sick from drinking it. You guys are grasping at straws.

Good to know! Assuming you've had some questionable batches. Ever find out what went sideways and how'd they turn out?

Ya know, I don't ever recall a bad batch. Some tasted better than others,  but that's due to season variations in my apples.
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Offline denny

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Re: My cider has a problem
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2023, 09:23:04 am »
I have been making cider from apples I grow, pick, press and ferment myself. Never have I or anyone else been sick from drinking it. You guys are grasping at straws.

while not discounting that you may/likely/have never made a bad cider, imho it is possible to make a cider that has unwanted bacteria overgrowth in it that continues in or creates toxins that end up in the finished product after fermentation (eventually) takes place. https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/what-you-need-know-about-juice-safety . wide variation in pH between apple ciders/storage/handling/packaging dates. i am simply describing my experience with a cider i made under crude conditions once.

the key issue here is that there are variables we cant control in some, not all apple juice before we receive it and generally the advice is not to boil it, and that may even be too late if it was unpasteurized and handled/stored poorly at some point in the supply chain.

im no expert, but my key thing i was trying to say was that, for newbies homebrewing extract beer will result in a better product faster than cider or mead.

You're referring to raw juice, not fermented juice. I doubt conditions could get much cruder than how I make cider. Pick & press the apples outdoors with no sanitation whatsoever. No pasteurization. Much faster and easier to make than beer. And bacteria making toxins in apple juice? Can you cite some evidence, please?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline fredthecat

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Re: My cider has a problem
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2023, 06:01:10 pm »
I have been making cider from apples I grow, pick, press and ferment myself. Never have I or anyone else been sick from drinking it. You guys are grasping at straws.

while not discounting that you may/likely/have never made a bad cider, imho it is possible to make a cider that has unwanted bacteria overgrowth in it that continues in or creates toxins that end up in the finished product after fermentation (eventually) takes place. https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/what-you-need-know-about-juice-safety . wide variation in pH between apple ciders/storage/handling/packaging dates. i am simply describing my experience with a cider i made under crude conditions once.

the key issue here is that there are variables we cant control in some, not all apple juice before we receive it and generally the advice is not to boil it, and that may even be too late if it was unpasteurized and handled/stored poorly at some point in the supply chain.

im no expert, but my key thing i was trying to say was that, for newbies homebrewing extract beer will result in a better product faster than cider or mead.

You're referring to raw juice, not fermented juice. I doubt conditions could get much cruder than how I make cider. Pick & press the apples outdoors with no sanitation whatsoever. No pasteurization. Much faster and easier to make than beer. And bacteria making toxins in apple juice? Can you cite some evidence, please?

im saying that suboptimal brewing actions may occur, such as insufficient yeast, late adding of yeast. yes im talking about the raw juice, im just thinking that the potential does exist in unpasteurized/unboiled must(? - apple juice) under some circumstances, even a few hours up to say a delayed addition or action of the yeast due to poor brewing practices (a newbie or a lazy person or ??) and toxins could be produced by organisms or bacteria in the drink. comparatively in a boiled wort the only danger is from botulism spores.

im not going to go citing this, but i think you should be able to understand that i mean in unusual but possible cases this could happen. personally i believe ive gotten sick, not just due to the alcohol, but from bacteria/toxins/?? in a cloudy rice wine made at a restaurant/brewplace in asia and from a homebrewed cider i made that was really crummy. ie. i didnt follow the pattern and practices i normally do for my main homebrews, this was a very small batch using some old yeast in a small amount i think.

if someone bought some unpasteurized apple juice that happened to be near the end of its shelf life, then it was warmed to say low or mid 60s in preparation for yeast temps, then a slow-to-act yeast, it could be an issue. whereas similar practice with wort would not.



Offline Joe_Beer

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Re: My cider has a problem
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2023, 06:41:18 am »
if someone bought some unpasteurized apple juice that happened to be near the end of its shelf life, then it was warmed to say low or mid 60s in preparation for yeast temps, then a slow-to-act yeast, it could be an issue. whereas similar practice with wort would not.

Not out of the realm of possibility and the cause of  an estimated (link below) 16,000-48,000 case of illness a year :)

I poked around and found a thesis from 2003 on the topic here. It does mention unpastuerized juices being implicated in widespread illness. On page 27, some info about contamination of cider (non-fermented kind) of raw product due to handling, processing and/or insects, animals, birds and rodents. The good news is it must not be all that common or Denny's reportable number of dumpers would be more than zero :)

Further down there is mention of methods which can produce a "5-log reduction" in pathogens (100,000 times fewer) which includes carbon dioxide and "high hydrostatic pressure" which I don't think 30psi in a keg would qualify (350 megapascals is over 50,000 PSI), but Co2 is certainly mentioned. Page 33 lists further ways to reduce contamination. I found it a really interesting read and I think some of you will too.

Things I'll do differently is make sure to purge O2 from my kegs after opening them (I don't typically do that with cider) and star-san the lid whenever removing it from the keg. Also, the day I racked the cider was later on in the afternoon after I had been doing some work removing a glass block window in the basement. There was a lot of "matter" stirred up that day and probably still some floating around. Waiting till the next day for things to settle would have been wiser.







Offline Joe_Beer

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Re: My cider has a problem
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2023, 05:47:41 pm »
Just to follow up, I sampled the cider again yesterday with no ill affects.


Offline denny

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Re: My cider has a problem
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2023, 08:43:51 am »
Just to follow up, I sampled the cider again yesterday with no ill affects.

To be expected
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell