[trapae]

I recently installed a reverse osmosis water filter in my house and have done 4 brews using RO water and additions using Bruin water.  I’ve been hitting my pH perfectly and the beers taste good, but my efficiency on each beer has dropped from my prior of 72% to a new efficiency of 68%. I have changed nothing else. Any ideas why this has happened? I can just change the efficiency in my Program, but I’m curious?

[denny]

I recently installed a reverse osmosis water filter in my house and have done 4 brews using RO water and additions using Bruin water.  I’ve been hitting my pH perfectly and the beers taste good, but my efficiency on each beer has dropped from my prior of 72% to a new efficiency of 68%. I have changed nothing else. Any ideas why this has happened? I can just change the efficiency in my Program, but I’m curious?

Same recipes and bags of grain as before?

[trapae]

Exactly the same equipment. Same grains from same companies. I’ve made three beers since going to RO water. Each time the pH came back almost perfect and they tasted great but all three beers had four points less gravity than projected. (2 IPAs and one Schwartzbeir). I had also made these beers many times. I just can’t understand it. I was prior using arrowhead springwater without doing any water adjustments at all. So I’m very happy with the pH and the water, I just don’t understand why efficiency has dropped. I also checked the gap on my grain mill and it hasn’t changed. Today I Double crushed thinking that might help but the same results.

[BrewBama]

Same grain from same company meaning same bag?  …or something like Pale malt from Great Western from two different 50# bags/lots?

[denny]

Exactly the same equipment. Same grains from same companies. I’ve made three beers since going to RO water. Each time the pH came back almost perfect and they tasted great but all three beers had four points less gravity than projected. (2 IPAs and one Schwartzbeir). I had also made these beers many times. I just can’t understand it. I was prior using arrowhead springwater without doing any water adjustments at all. So I’m very happy with the pH and the water, I just don’t understand why efficiency has dropped. I also checked the gap on my grain mill and it hasn’t changed. Today I Double crushed thinking that might help but the same results.

Same batch of grain?

[denny]

Same grain from same company meaning same bag?  …or something like Pale malt from Great Western from two different 50# bags/lots?

Yeah, same bag. Without that you have a variable to account for someh9w.

[lupulus]

If what you described is 100% correct,  and you verified the malt is from the same production batch, the only logical  explanation for what you describe is dough balls.
Mash in at 131F or below, mix well with a mash paddle, and ramp to your saccharification rest/s.
If you are not 100% certain it's from the same batch, gelatinization temperature of the malt is an alternative but dough balls seems a more likely explanation.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

[jeffy]

Did you use the same water program with your previous water to predict pH? Was that water tested at a lab?
Perhaps your mash efficiency dropped not because of pH but because of ....... I don't know, just grasping at straws.

[trapae]

good point. When I said same ingredients, I meant Same ingredients from my homebrew store in Long Beach. Great western 2 row each time, but these were months apart so they could definitely have come from different batches from them. I just went back and looked and it turns out my first brew that was way off was ale, using great western. My second  brew was the Schwarzbier that I ordered online to get Barke pils, and the efficiency was actually just what I was expecting. And then my third brew using RO water was today and I was 4 points off again. So maybe it is a Homebrew store grain?

[lupulus]

good point. When I said same ingredients, I meant Same ingredients from my homebrew store in Long Beach. Great western 2 row each time, but these were months apart so they could definitely have come from different batches from them. I just went back and looked and it turns out my first brew that was way off was ale, using great western. My second  brew was the Schwarzbier that I ordered online to get Barke pils, and the efficiency was actually just what I was expecting. And then my third brew using RO water was today and I was 4 points off again. So maybe it is a Homebrew store grain?

Describe your full mash process, please.

Also, what's a point to you?
A SG point, a Plato point, a percent efficiency point. If efficiency, what's the formula you're using?
If your denominator is expected Starch content in the grain and you don't have the COA , you are "flying blind".
The drought last year increased protein content and some US malts could be 13-15% protein and 7% soluble protein.
Other malts may only have 5% soluble protein.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

[BrewBama]

good point. When I said same ingredients, I meant Same ingredients from my homebrew store in Long Beach. Great western 2 row each time, but these were months apart so they could definitely have come from different batches from them. I just went back and looked and it turns out my first brew that was way off was ale, using great western. My second  brew was the Schwarzbier that I ordered online to get Barke pils, and the efficiency was actually just what I was expecting. And then my third brew using RO water was today and I was 4 points off again. So maybe it is a Homebrew store grain?

Not the HomeBrew store, or grain brand, or your system, or RO water IMO. I believe it’s the difference in an agricultural product one lot to another.

For example:

…
The drought last year increased protein content and some US malts could be 13-15% protein and 7% soluble protein.

Other malts may only have 5% soluble protein.

…

IOW: variations season to season, lot to lot, field to field can and do result in higher/lower extract.

If you buy a whole sack you can probably get the spec sheet and use it to make adjustments if you learn how to use the information.

Short of that it’s luck of the draw lot to lot.

[trapae]

My mashing process:
Preheat my mashtun while heating my strike water in the hot liquor tank. Transfer via pump the strike water to my mashtun. Mash in in several different stages while stirring to get the doughballs out. When I’m at mash temperature close up and mash for 60 minutes. Vorlauf gently using a pump. Transfer the first runnings to the brew kettle. Gently pump the sparge water at 185 degrees into the mashtun. Stir and Vorlauf and transfer the second runnings to the brew kettle. Then start the boil.
This is how I’ve been doing it for 15 years. Just weird that the two Ales I’ve done since I’ve started doing water chemistry both came out for gravity points lower.  Oh well
I will try a different two row next time.

[lupulus]

Not possible for everyone but when possible, buy malt by the bag and learn to read the COA.
Won't tell you everything but you'll get useful info.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

[denny]

good point. When I said same ingredients, I meant Same ingredients from my homebrew store in Long Beach. Great western 2 row each time, but these were months apart so they could definitely have come from different batches from them. I just went back and looked and it turns out my first brew that was way off was ale, using great western. My second  brew was the Schwarzbier that I ordered online to get Barke pils, and the efficiency was actually just what I was expecting. And then my third brew using RO water was today and I was 4 points off again. So maybe it is a Homebrew store grain?

It's not at all unusual for extract to vary between bags of malt purchased at different times. The only real way to know is to get value lot analysis for the malt and plug the extract number into your software. It's pretty unlikely you'll get that info from a LHBS. I don't see anything that necessarily points to the water.

[chinaski]

Over how many batches have you observed this decrease?  Is it possible that it is just random fluctuation rather than a significant change?  Given the small magnitude of the change you report, I wouldn't stress about it too much.