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Author Topic: Confirm what I already "think" I know  (Read 1611 times)

Online HopDen

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Confirm what I already "think" I know
« on: August 11, 2023, 02:08:05 pm »
I am short on enough yeast. White Labs calculator suggests 5-11.5 g packets, I have 2.

1.066 OG/17 Gallons/66* pitch temp/WLP-001 DRY/WCIPA

Will pitching 2 packs stress the yeast too much? I think it will at the OG above.

Thoughts please.... I am brewing tmrrw morning so I can't procure any more yeast. I don't want to make a starter. Should I just brew something else?

Offline tommymorris

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Re: Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2023, 02:14:59 pm »
I think you have already asked the experts (the manufacturer White Labs). I would trust them. I personally would not roll the dice on so much beer especially not on a WCIPA which probably cost a hefty amount to brew.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2023, 02:18:34 pm »
Why not make a smaller batch this time and harvest the yeast for a larger batch next time?  Just thinking out loud.

I used to make small batches and progress to larger batches with yeast re-pitched from batch to batch.
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Online HopDen

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Re: Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2023, 03:19:17 pm »
I think you have already asked the experts (the manufacturer White Labs). I would trust them. I personally would not roll the dice on so much beer especially not on a WCIPA which probably cost a hefty amount to brew.

Absolutely! If I had 3 I might just roll the dice, maybe, but probably not!! And you are correct about the costs, especially cry hops. They seem to have gone up. IIRC, a 1 pound bag of cry mosaic/citra was $60 on a few sites. That's in the neighborhood of "I'm not sharing any of this" LOL!

Online HopDen

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Re: Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2023, 03:21:26 pm »
Why not make a smaller batch this time and harvest the yeast for a larger batch next time?  Just thinking out loud.

I used to make small batches and progress to larger batches with yeast re-pitched from batch to batch.

I gave that idea a few seconds thought but my ingredients on hand for this beer is specific to a 17 gallon batch. I will order more WLP001 and brew in a couple weeks.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2023, 04:52:10 pm »
2 packs is plenty for 17 gallons.  Mark my words.
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Online HopDen

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Re: Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2023, 06:00:52 pm »
2 packs is plenty for 17 gallons.  Mark my words.

Really? Can you expound on why that is Dave? I appreciate the response and I know from prior posts from you I believe you have a great deal of info on yeast but I need to know the reason.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2023, 07:28:56 pm »
2 packs is plenty for 17 gallons.  Mark my words.

Really? Can you expound on why that is Dave? I appreciate the response and I know from prior posts from you I believe you have a great deal of info on yeast but I need to know the reason.

It's a long story and a long thread, but about 7 years ago, I did some math and many batches to figure out that... we really only need to use about 1/2 pack of dry yeast for 5 gallons of ale.  For a cold fermentation (e.g., lager), I might use a whole pack for 5 gallons.

So... for 17 gallons of ale... you only need somewhere between 1.5 to 2 packs of yeast.  EDIT: Upon further review of my link below... I'm leaning even more towards 1.5 packs being sufficient.

My experience has proved to me at least 50 times, if not 100 times, that these amounts are sufficient.

I don't use yeast calculators anymore... they're all full of crap... guaranteed to get fermentation off to an extremely fast start, resulting in a bland beer, and putting more money in the seller's & manufacturer's pockets.  Overkill to the max.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=27438.0
« Last Edit: August 11, 2023, 07:51:45 pm by dmtaylor »
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Offline BrewBama

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Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2023, 04:12:44 am »
Here’s the thing I get hung up on: the mfr says do X but a homebrewer says to do Y.

The mfr propagates the product, studies it, performs blind taste test/sensory analysis on it, stakes their business reputation on the outcomes which they have no control over when in the hands of the consumer.

…yet we’re supposed to disregard all the above, plus probably a whole lot more I omitted, because a homebrewer did some math and prefers the taste of his beers when underpitched (per the mfr recommendation).

I understand the mfr has profit to gain and is probably conservative because of the unknown variables, but I simply can’t get around the fact that they’ve studied this 10 ways from Sunday to develop their recommendation.  We’re supposed to believe they are lying to us just to sell more yeast.

I don’t buy it.  I’d go with the mfr.   …but that’s just me. It’s your beer. Do what you want and let us know how it turned out.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 04:14:55 am by BrewBama »

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2023, 05:03:32 am »
To each his own. I really just love to save time and money, and not do anything that is not necessary.  It’s kind of my thing.
Dave

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Online HopDen

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Re: Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2023, 05:06:28 am »
I am short on enough yeast. White Labs calculator suggests 5-11.5 g packets, I have 2.

1.066 OG/17 Gallons/66* pitch temp/WLP-001 DRY/WCIPA

Will pitching 2 packs stress the yeast too much? I think it will at the OG above.

Thoughts please.... I am brewing tmrrw morning so I can't procure any more yeast. I don't want to make a starter. Should I just brew something else?

FWIW, upon awaking this morning, I questioned if I wanted to risk making a subpar beer by under-pitching especially considering the cost of making an IPA. Making a Czech style pilsner with lots of edelweiss and saaz hops.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2023, 05:15:11 am »
But I wouldn’t call it an underpitch.  I would consider this comparison to be between an adequate pitch vs. a major overpitch. These are different comparisons. Your gut tells you that five packs is a major overpitch. Your gut is correct.

If you don't know what to believe, and thus don't want to brew the IPA today, let me pose this idea for an experiment.  Buy some more yeast to brew another day.  But then, when the day comes... pitch just 2 packs of yeast, not 5.  Then if the fermentation starts off like gangbusters within ~12-18 hours, don't pitch the rest of the yeast.  But if you get nervous after ~18 hours, then pitch another 1-3 packs as you think you need.  No harm no foul.  Then you'll KNOW how much yeast was needed.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 05:21:13 am by dmtaylor »
Dave

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Online HopDen

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Re: Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2023, 06:24:24 am »
But I wouldn’t call it an underpitch.  I would consider this comparison to be between an adequate pitch vs. a major overpitch. These are different comparisons. Your gut tells you that five packs is a major overpitch. Your gut is correct.

If you don't know what to believe, and thus don't want to brew the IPA today, let me pose this idea for an experiment.  Buy some more yeast to brew another day.  But then, when the day comes... pitch just 2 packs of yeast, not 5.  Then if the fermentation starts off like gangbusters within ~12-18 hours, don't pitch the rest of the yeast.  But if you get nervous after ~18 hours, then pitch another 1-3 packs as you think you need.  No harm no foul.  Then you'll KNOW how much yeast was needed.

I did just that and put an order in last night. I like your idea and I will try the experiment. I would even take the clock out to 24-36 hours before adding more yeast, if needed.

On a side note. WLP001 dry yeast costs $10/11.5g pack so that cost alone is crazy to me. Compiled with the costs of cryo hops I wasn't willing to experiment today.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 06:29:20 am by HopDen »

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2023, 07:35:29 am »
On a side note. WLP001 dry yeast costs $10/11.5g pack so that cost alone is crazy to me. Compiled with the costs of cryo hops I wasn't willing to experiment today.

White Labs is all extremely overpriced.  There, I said it.
Dave

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Offline denny

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Re: Confirm what I already "think" I know
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2023, 08:25:10 am »
Here’s the thing I get hung up on: the mfr says do X but a homebrewer says to do Y.

The mfr propagates the product, studies it, performs blind taste test/sensory analysis on it, stakes their business reputation on the outcomes which they have no control over when in the hands of the consumer.

…yet we’re supposed to disregard all the above, plus probably a whole lot more I omitted, because a homebrewer did some math and prefers the taste of his beers when underpitched (per the mfr recommendation).

I understand the mfr has profit to gain and is probably conservative because of the unknown variables, but I simply can’t get around the fact that they’ve studied this 10 ways from Sunday to develop their recommendation.  We’re supposed to believe they are lying to us just to sell more yeast.

I don’t buy it.  I’d go with the mfr.   …but that’s just me. It’s your beer. Do what you want and let us know how it turned out.

Manufacturers test in a lab. Homebrewers test in real life situations. I will always trust my own experience.
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