[Homebrew_kev]

Yes, I understand hydrostatic pressure but I really don't think that's the issue.

You're allowed to think what you want to think.

[ynotbrusum]

This is a short explanation from Neva Parker at White Labs in 2022:

https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=75&type=NEWS

Cheers!

[denny]

Yes, I understand hydrostatic pressure but I really don't think that's the issue.

You're allowed to think what you want to think.

why didn't Stan mention it in BLAM?

[hopfenundmalz]

If you want to avoid oxygen pickup be sure to boil your syrup water to drive out all the dissolved oxygen before adding it to your beer.

If your yeast is active, then it should consume any O2 introduced. That said, boiling is still probably a decent idea for sanitization purposes.

I know this goes against a lot of homebrewer knowledge - but adding in o2 at high krausen would help the yeast. Yeast prefers o2 before sugar and will scavenge o2 whenever it can. At high krausen it's most active, and giving it a shot of o2 would be helpful, especially if you're making a high abv belgian beer. I wouldn't even be worried about sanitizing it, there's trillions of super active yeast cells in there that whatever household bacteria gets in there wouldn't stand a chance. I'd be more concerned about adding in unfiltered water, with chlorine and stuff like that. But, I think thinning out the sugar would be helpful, as it would disperse better in the fermenter.

I give my big beers a shot of O2 at around 12 to 16 hours in.

[Homebrew_kev]

why didn't Stan mention it in BLAM?

I'm not here to debunk Stan, but that book was published 20 years ago. I'm sure there's very useful information in there, especially when trappist/abbey beers we drink today have been brewed for many decades.

However, I will never tell someone not to incrementally feed their belgian beers - especially if they want to.

[denny]

why didn't Stan mention it in BLAM?

I'm not here to debunk Stan, but that book was published 20 years ago. I'm sure there's very useful information in there, especially when trappist/abbey beers we drink today have been brewed for many decades.

However, I will never tell someone not to incrementally feed their belgian beers - especially if they want to.

I won't tell them not to, either.  I'll tell them they don't need to and let them decide.

[Homebrew_kev]

I won't tell them not to, either.  I'll tell them they don't need to and let them decide.

yes, we all know you like to make homebrew beer like it's 2005.

[denny]

I won't tell them not to, either.  I'll tell them they don't need to and let them decide.

yes, we all know you like to make homebrew beer like it's 2005.

 

Snarky today, aren't ya?

[chinaski]

why didn't Stan mention it in BLAM?

I'm not here to debunk Stan, but that book was published 20 years ago. I'm sure there's very useful information in there, especially when trappist/abbey beers we drink today have been brewed for many decades.

However, I will never tell someone not to incrementally feed their belgian beers - especially if they want to.

I won't tell them not to, either.  I'll tell them they don't need to and let them decide.

I am a good skeptical scientist type- why not approach it as an experiment?  Could be all sorts of reasons why Westmalle does or does not do incremental feeding just as there might be reasons why to try it and compare at the homebrew level.  Healthy respectful debate is fine, but some data points might be in order!

[fredthecat]

im not quoting in reply since there was a lot said back and forth.

but i had an idea like this previously that i tried in two beers - that i would make a wort of around 1.05 or 1.06 gravity at 3 gallons or so in size, make that be essentially a huge yeast starter.

then when this had started to ramp up at krausen i would add in another 2 gallons of very high gravity wort to make an end product of 1.090 or something.

it actually had some of most unexpectedly bad attenuation ive ever had on both occasions. though i admit i use a fair amount of extract in these concentrated additions, which may have been a factor - but many would argue extract isnt inherently low-attenuating.

main point is since then i've brewed a lot of high gravity beers and my experience is that it is simply best to be reasonable about your gravity you're trying to hit - ie. do a little math and see if your yeast volume/amount is going to work for your expected gravity.
-mash low if you want good attenuation

just give it all the 02 you can and don't rush it.

1.080 as you said in the OP isn't an insane OG and consider pitching two packs if you are concerned about the fermentation quality.

edit: i know ive said this before too, and obviously different yeast strains have specific characters people do want in their beer - but the cheat code method for brewing big big beers when you don't have say pure O2 injection and the time to make a first beer to grow a huge amount of yeast to pitch is simply - dry yeast.


Safbrew Abbaye is very much like WLP500/chimay
BE-256 reminded me of those gulden draak style pale quads and got super high attenuation and alcohol for me
BRY97 - absolute workhorse, great for imperial stouts/barleywines/IIPAs, etc
US-04 - i admittedly havent used it in a long time but english
notty - probably highest alcohol tolerance of these
many many more

you choose one of these or one of the many other types and simply use 3 packs. no O2 needed, no worry about pitch rate, youre going to get the attenuation you want. now go and make big beers.

[denny]

why didn't Stan mention it in BLAM?

I'm not here to debunk Stan, but that book was published 20 years ago. I'm sure there's very useful information in there, especially when trappist/abbey beers we drink today have been brewed for many decades.

However, I will never tell someone not to incrementally feed their belgian beers - especially if they want to.

I won't tell them not to, either.  I'll tell them they don't need to and let them decide.

I am a good skeptical scientist type- why not approach it as an experiment?  Could be all sorts of reasons why Westmalle does or does not do incremental feeding just as there might be reasons why to try it and compare at the homebrew level.  Healthy respectful debate is fine, but some data points might be in order!

Indeed. I'm waiting to hear data that Westmalle does it. I've tested it for myself numerous times.

[denny]

im not quoting in reply since there was a lot said back and forth.

but i had an idea like this previously that i tried in two beers - that i would make a wort of around 1.05 or 1.06 gravity at 3 gallons or so in size, make that be essentially a huge yeast starter.

then when this had started to ramp up at krausen i would add in another 2 gallons of very high gravity wort to make an end product of 1.090 or something.

it actually had some of most unexpectedly bad attenuation ive ever had on both occasions. though i admit i use a fair amount of extract in these concentrated additions, which may have been a factor - but many would argue extract isnt inherently low-attenuating.

main point is since then i've brewed a lot of high gravity beers and my experience is that it is simply best to be reasonable about your gravity you're trying to hit - ie. do a little math and see if your yeast volume/amount is going to work for your expected gravity.
-mash low if you want good attenuation

just give it all the 02 you can and don't rush it.

1.080 as you said in the OP isn't an insane OG and consider pitching two packs if you are concerned about the fermentation quality.

edit: i know ive said this before too, and obviously different yeast strains have specific characters people do want in their beer - but the cheat code method for brewing big big beers when you don't have say pure O2 injection and the time to make a first beer to grow a huge amount of yeast to pitch is simply - dry yeast.


Safbrew Abbaye is very much like WLP500/chimay
BE-256 reminded me of those gulden draak style pale quads and got super high attenuation and alcohol for me
BRY97 - absolute workhorse, great for imperial stouts/barleywines/IIPAs, etc
US-04 - i admittedly havent used it in a long time but english
notty - probably highest alcohol tolerance of these
many many more

you choose one of these or one of the many other types and simply use 3 packs. no O2 needed, no worry about pitch rate, youre going to get the attenuation you want. now go and make big beers.

Unfortunately none of those yeasts gives me what I'm looking for in a Belgian style

[goose]

If you want to avoid oxygen pickup be sure to boil your syrup water to drive out all the dissolved oxygen before adding it to your beer.

If your yeast is active, then it should consume any O2 introduced. That said, boiling is still probably a decent idea for sanitization purposes.

I know this goes against a lot of homebrewer knowledge - but adding in o2 at high krausen would help the yeast. Yeast prefers o2 before sugar and will scavenge o2 whenever it can. At high krausen it's most active, and giving it a shot of o2 would be helpful, especially if you're making a high abv belgian beer. I wouldn't even be worried about sanitizing it, there's trillions of super active yeast cells in there that whatever household bacteria gets in there wouldn't stand a chance. I'd be more concerned about adding in unfiltered water, with chlorine and stuff like that. But, I think thinning out the sugar would be helpful, as it would disperse better in the fermenter.

I give my big beers a shot of O2 at around 12 to 16 hours in.

When I worked at a brewery, we would sometimes double batch a high gravity beer over two days (not done anymore).  The rule of thumb that we used is that you could add O2 on the second day but at a lower amount than on the first day.  After that no more.  Usually our second batch was completed no more than 24 hours after the first.  I would hesitate adding additional O2 after 24 hours in a single batch since the yeast is already switching to anaerobic activity and will not take it much, if any O2, since it has already grown to the amount needed in the fermentation process and budding will significantly slow or stop.  Adding O2 after the yeast is really going could begin to oxidize the beer, IMHO.

So my opinion is if you add additional O2, do it withing 12-15 hours or so before the yeast has reached high krausen or alternatively, use another pack of yeast or a bigger starter.  If other have differing opinions that conflicts my observations, please share them.  I can always learn more about this technique.

[erockrph]

I've gotten an all-malt (no sugar) barleywine to attenuate from 1.142 down to 1.024 (83% attenuation). I did pitch a giant amount of yeast, oxygenated with pure O2 at pitch and 18 hours later, and open-fermented, but I was using a Yorkshire strain that has a high O2 requirement. My Double IPA's and BDSA's start in the 1.080-1.090 range and finish at or under 1.012 depending on yeast strain and how much sugar I use (added to the boil). My meads generally start in the 1.120-1.140 range and finish between 0.997 and 1.020. No incremental sugar additions there either, just lots of aeration.

If you're having a specific problem that you're looking to solve, and you think incremental feeding will help, then have at it and please let us know how it works out. Personally, I've never seen the need. I've tried it out a couple of times, but my attenuation was the same in the end, so I decided to keep it simple and I just add all my fermentables in the boil now.

[denny]

I've gotten an all-malt (no sugar) barleywine to attenuate from 1.142 down to 1.024 (83% attenuation). I did pitch a giant amount of yeast, oxygenated with pure O2 at pitch and 18 hours later, and open-fermented, but I was using a Yorkshire strain that has a high O2 requirement. My Double IPA's and BDSA's start in the 1.080-1.090 range and finish at or under 1.012 depending on yeast strain and how much sugar I use (added to the boil). My meads generally start in the 1.120-1.140 range and finish between 0.997 and 1.020. No incremental sugar additions there either, just lots of aeration.

If you're having a specific problem that you're looking to solve, and you think incremental feeding will help, then have at it and please let us know how it works out. Personally, I've never seen the need. I've tried it out a couple of times, but my attenuation was the same in the end, so I decided to keep it simple and I just add all my fermentables in the boil now.

That last paragraph sums up what I've been saying.