[abraxas]

Last night I was brewing and figured why not add the hops as I was bringing the wort up to boil, before boil and hotbreak.  Worked ok and seemed to prevent a big hot break (though honestly I was sidetracked and wasn't paying that much attention).

Today I see that Palmer recommends adding the hops after the HB: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter7-2.html

Online I read that this might result in reduced precipitation of proteins and phenols resulting in a cloudier final product.  I've also read the concern of leaving too much hop material on the kettle walls (this didn't seem to be an issue).  I was using whole hops so I wasn't able to notice a shortage of trub.

Even with a vigorous fermentation should I expect more haze and phenol character in the final beer? 

[jeffy]

Last night I was brewing and figured why not add the hops as I was bringing the wort up to boil, before boil and hotbreak.  Worked ok and seemed to prevent a big hot break (though honestly I was sidetracked and wasn't paying that much attention).

Today I see that Palmer recommends adding the hops after the HB: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter7-2.html

Online I read that this might result in reduced precipitation of proteins and phenols resulting in a cloudier final product.  I've also read the concern of leaving too much hop material on the kettle walls (this didn't seem to be an issue).  I was using whole hops so I wasn't able to notice a shortage of trub.

Even with a vigorous fermentation should I expect more haze and phenol character in the final beer? 

Adding hops to the wort as you are bringing it to a boil is called first wort hopping.  I do it on almost all the beers I make that I want to accent the hop's flavor.  Promash has a calculation for the IBU's for this, which is a bit less than the IBU's from a 60 minute addition.
It will have absolutely no effect on beer clarity.

[denny]

Other than FWH, I always start my hop additions after the hot break.  The idea is that the break will coat the hops and reduce utilization.  I don't know if there's scientific basis in that, but it makes sense and isn't hard to do.

[jeffy]

Other than FWH, I always start my hop additions after the hot break.  The idea is that the break will coat the hops and reduce utilization.  I don't know if there's scientific basis in that, but it makes sense and isn't hard to do.

That does make sense, I guess.  I always wondered why the BU calculation for FWH was less than for a full boil addition.

[abraxas]

Adding hops to the wort as you are bringing it to a boil is called first wort hopping.

Interesting, can't believe I never came across this before.

http://www.brewery.org/library/1stwort.html

3. Tasting panel results: the FWH beers were overwhelmingly preferred over the reference beers in triangular taste tests (i.e., each taster was given three beers, two of either the reference beer or the FWH beer, and one of the other, and had to correctly identify which two were alike before their preference results were incorporated in the database). 11 of 12 tasters of each beer preferred the FWH beer. The main reasons given for the preference: "a fine, unobtrusive hop aroma; a more harmonic beer; a more uniform bitterness."

[denny]

That does make sense, I guess.  I always wondered why the BU calculation for FWH was less than for a full boil addition.

I think that's a completely different issue and it's arrived at pretty much subjectively.

[Hokerer]

That does make sense, I guess.  I always wondered why the BU calculation for FWH was less than for a full boil addition.

Be careful with that one, different tools calculate FWH bitterness contribution differently.  From a scientifically measured standpoint, the IBUs contributed by FWH are greater than a 60-minute addition.  Subjectively, though, lots of folks perceive the bitterness from FWH as "cleaner" or "smoother" and more in line with a 20-minute addition.  If I remember corrrectly, Denny modifies the FWH utilization percentage in his software settings to make it equivalent to a 20-minute.  Personally, I've found doing that leaves me with a little too much bitterness "bite" so I've started letting FWH calculate as a 65-minute addition.

[denny]

If I remember corrrectly, Denny modifies the FWH utilization percentage in his software settings to make it equivalent to a 20-minute.  Personally, I've found doing that leaves me with a little too much bitterness "bite" so I've started letting FWH calculate as a 65-minute addition.

Yep, that's what it seems like to me.  I had some beers analyzed and it looked like FWH contributed maybe 10% more IBU (27 rather than 25 in the beers I had analyzed) but that's a pretty small sample size.  But subjectively, it tastes more like a 20 min. addition to me.  Everyone should do like you did and decide for themselves.  BTW, if anyone wants to recreate this experiment, let me know and I'll see what I can do to hook you up with a lab.  It would be great to have a wider range of data points.

[kgs]

Other than FWH, I always start my hop additions after the hot break.  The idea is that the break will coat the hops and reduce utilization.  I don't know if there's scientific basis in that, but it makes sense and isn't hard to do.

I do it because it makes timing the brewing workflow easier--hot break, start timer, add hops. Anything else would be higher math, and I was an English major :-)

[denny]

I do it because it makes timing the brewing workflow easier--hot break, start timer, add hops. Anything else would be higher math, and I was an English major :-)

Hey, me, too!  Great minds think alike!

[majorvices]

If I remember corrrectly, Denny modifies the FWH utilization percentage in his software settings to make it equivalent to a 20-minute.  Personally, I've found doing that leaves me with a little too much bitterness "bite" so I've started letting FWH calculate as a 65-minute addition.

Yep, that's what it seems like to me.  I had some beers analyzed and it looked like FWH contributed maybe 10% more IBU (27 rather than 25 in the beers I had analyzed) but that's a pretty small sample size.  But subjectively, it tastes more like a 20 min. addition to me.  Everyone should do like you did and decide for themselves.  BTW, if anyone wants to recreate this experiment, let me know and I'll see what I can do to hook you up with a lab.  It would be great to have a wider range of data points.

Hey Denny - I am fixin' to start experimenting with my FWH kolsch down at the brewery. I don't have an RO system yet so I am not sure how well the brew will do, but if the experiments turn out and I start brewing it full time I might could hook up an experiment.

[uthristy]

If I remember corrrectly, Denny modifies the FWH utilization percentage in his software settings to make it equivalent to a 20-minute.  Personally, I've found doing that leaves me with a little too much bitterness "bite" so I've started letting FWH calculate as a 65-minute addition.

I use -65% in promash and its been real good to my tastebuds.

[denny]

Hey Denny - I am fixin' to start experimenting with my FWH kolsch down at the brewery. I don't have an RO system yet so I am not sure how well the brew will do, but if the experiments turn out and I start brewing it full time I might could hook up an experiment.

Keith, let me know.  The lab I use will do it free for homebrewers, but since they also work for commercial breweries there might be some sort of charge for you.  OTOH, is might be worthwhile to you to pay a nominal amount to have your beers analyzed.  PM me if you want details.

[denny]

If I remember corrrectly, Denny modifies the FWH utilization percentage in his software settings to make it equivalent to a 20-minute.  Personally, I've found doing that leaves me with a little too much bitterness "bite" so I've started letting FWH calculate as a 65-minute addition.

I use -65% in promash and its been real good to my tastebuds.

Same here...that setting equates to how much time in the boil there is.  For a 60 min. boil, -65 means 20 min.  If you do a 90 min. boil, -65 would be 30 min.

[majorvices]

Hey Denny - I am fixin' to start experimenting with my FWH kolsch down at the brewery. I don't have an RO system yet so I am not sure how well the brew will do, but if the experiments turn out and I start brewing it full time I might could hook up an experiment.

Keith, let me know.  The lab I use will do it free for homebrewers, but since they also work for commercial breweries there might be some sort of charge for you.  OTOH, is might be worthwhile to you to pay a nominal amount to have your beers analyzed.  PM me if you want details.

OK. I might think about it down the line. I am still trying to iron out consistency myself so I am in no hurry to have anything analyzed. I personally don't care much what the actual BUs end up being as long as the beer meets my taste requirements, so I don't know that I am up for paying for anything right now.