Author Topic: Late extract & cold/hot breaks  (Read 1536 times)

Offline jdawg

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Late extract & cold/hot breaks
« on: December 23, 2010, 05:53:01 PM »
I apologize right now if this has been covered elsewhere.  From what I understand, the extract late method is used to correctly attenuate hop additions due to volume-based gravity differences when using smaller than full volume boils (i.e. 3 gallon boils on a stovetop which will result in higher boil gravity and lower hops utilization, versus most recipes which are written for 5.5, 6 or more gallon boils).  The reason for asking, other than just general knowledge, is that a couple extra dollars spent on additional hops is much less than a propane tank/turkey fryer/8 gallon stainless steel pot.  At $2.00/oz. I could adjust hops additions for several years before it would equal the equipment upgrade.
My questions are:
1.  How long before flameout to add 2nd addition of extract to have 2nd addition achieve hot break?  Will it at all?
2.  Will late additions of extract still achieve cold break?
3.  Should hop additons, except for steeping additons after flameout, all occur before 2nd additon?
Thank you in advance for any help you can offer.  I have 4-5 gallon batches under my belt and I am looking to improve all aspects my new obsession.

Offline jdawg

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Re: Late extract & cold/hot breaks
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 06:02:14 PM »
Edit: utilization of hops instead of attenuation.

Offline hokerer

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Re: Late extract & cold/hot breaks
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 07:19:36 PM »
You're not going to get a whole lot in the way of breaks from extract.  In the process of creating the extracts, much of their breaks have already happened.  Rather than worrying about the break, just make you late addition only far enough ahead of flameout that it has time to be pasteurized, say 5-10 minutes.  And since the late hop additions really have very little to do with hop utilization, go ahead and make them at the prescribed times regardless of when you make the late extract addition.

Oh, and hop utilization is not the only benefit of late extract additions.  It can also help reduce Maillard reactions and excessive darkening of your wort - particularly important in lighter colored brews.  Some claim, too, that it can help reduce what's known as "extract twang".

ps. you don't need to post a separate correction.  You can edit your post by clicking on the 'Modify' button.
Joe

Offline jdawg

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Re: Late extract & cold/hot breaks
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2010, 07:38:03 PM »
If extracts don't require breaks, then why the need to boil for an hour?  If pasteurization should occur within 5-10 minutes then any extract should be ready to ferment within that time.  My understanding is that the boiling time of 60 minutes is to create the hot break and give time for hops to difuse their oils into the wort.  If your logic is followed, then hopped extracts are ready to ferment from 10 minutes of boiling from the moment of purchase, just long enough to let them ferment in a bucket without internal infections.  Something is missing...

Edit: Thank you for the 'Modify" tip. Just used it - first time user of forums.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 07:40:13 PM by jdawg »

Offline hokerer

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Re: Late extract & cold/hot breaks
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2010, 08:08:03 PM »
The extract is not the reason you're boiling, the hops are.  The only way to isomerize the alpha acids in the hops is via boiling.  A normal bittering requires boiling the hops for 60 minutes to get the IBU that you want out of the hops.  Late hop additions are more about flavor and aroma than bittering.  Oh, and hopped extracts are ready right away, in fact, many hopped extracts are "no-boil".

One other thing is that when you're boiling for the hops, you don't want to do that in plain water.  To properly utilize the hops, there must be some malt in the wort hence the reason you don't add all of the extract late.
Joe

Offline jdawg

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Re: Late extract & cold/hot breaks
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2010, 08:57:10 PM »
My questions have not been answered.
1.  "How long before flameout to add 2nd addition of extract to have 2nd addition achieve hot break?"
  Associated question - "How long before (time/temp) hot break occurs?"  Is it a function of % of suger in wort?  A volume of un-dissolved solids?  When/how does hot break occur?  Can wort/malt extract achieve hot break/cold break after added?  These are simple questions that should be easy to answer!!!

Offline jdawg

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Re: Late extract & cold/hot breaks
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2010, 09:03:57 PM »
To hokerer,
I am not lambasting you.  Thank you for responding.  I am not receiving the answers that I am looking for, and I am frustrated.
Thanks,
J

Offline euge

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Re: Late extract & cold/hot breaks
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2010, 01:35:52 AM »
To answer part of your question(s) from a different perspective: I'm in favor of doing concentrated short extract boils and just upping the hops to achieve desired BU's then diluting. And it doesn't have to be much. So hop price is ultimately cheap compared to yeast and bulk grain in my experience.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. -Richard P. Feynman