Author Topic: Shotgunning a Competition?  (Read 2222 times)

Offline dirtyjerzey

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Re: Shotgunning a Competition?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2011, 07:30:40 AM »
60 entries?!?!  :o


Not to derail the thread, but I wanted to ask a question since this thread has the attention of some competition guys....then back to the shotgunning....

Do competition entries have to be original recipes?  If you copy a recipe or use a kit, do you have to keep the name or credit the original brewer, or can you make up your own name since you brewed it?  I guess what I'm asking is....does such a thing as 'beer plagiarizim' (sp?) exist?

Thanks


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Offline hokerer

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Re: Shotgunning a Competition?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2011, 07:35:13 AM »
I don't follow the logic here. For my home club, our yearly competition is a major fund raiser, anything we did to limit entries would be detrimental to the club. Why do you penalize folks who want to enter multiple entries?

Might be detrimental short term but long term, it would be a benefit.  If all you're concerned about is fundraising then yes, the more the merrier.  Seems to me, though, you'd run into a problem getting more entries than you can reasonably handle (number of judges/stewards, storage space, etc.). From a competition entrants point of view, this would turn me off from entering a comp a second time.  I know most comps promise at least two feedback per but a comp that gives more than two stands out.  Likewise the quality/ranking of the judges giving the feedback.  Basically, I prefer quality over quantity so limiting shotgunning would be a win/win for me in deciding whether to enter a comp.
Joe

Offline blatz

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Re: Shotgunning a Competition?
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2011, 07:37:05 AM »

Do competition entries have to be original recipes?  If you copy a recipe or use a kit, do you have to keep the name or credit the original brewer, or can you make up your own name since you brewed it?  I guess what I'm asking is....does such a thing as 'beer plagiarizim' (sp?) exist?

you brewed it, its your beer.

think about how many styles out there use very simple recipes: Bo Pils - 100% pils malt, Saaz hops.  Hefeweiss: 50/50 pils/wheat to 1.050, noble hop to 12-15ibus at 60.  I could go on - point is its more about the outcome than the plans  ;)

back to our regularly scheduled programming.  

yes 60 entries.  that was just our comp, he entered many others that year.
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Offline dirtyjerzey

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Re: Shotgunning a Competition?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2011, 07:41:14 AM »
Thx blatz

It might be due time to unleash my creations to the world!! 


Do judges get a barf bucket?? 

They might want to start bringing them.....   ;D

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Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Shotgunning a Competition?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2011, 07:53:04 AM »
Do judges get a barf bucket??  They might want to start bringing them.....

Dump buckets are standard equipment for judging according to the BJCP Manual.  So they have us covered!
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Offline MDixon

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Re: Shotgunning a Competition?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2011, 08:01:35 AM »
I can remember when we got less than 100 entries in our comp, we were pushing 450 and it's too much for our club to handle. Think about the logistics of 900 bottles of beer on a two bottle comp...38 cases of beer!!! 19 cases have to be kept at serving temp for the first round of judging. Our comfort level is 300 and I'd really like to see 250. While this is our major fundraiser, we generally make as much or more on the raffle than the comp. Our break even point is $4-5 per...

Our "circuit" will currently not allow us to limit entries, so we put $ restraints which limit entries. As I mentioned, not popular, but effective! Some even boycotted us last year...do you really think that made me sad  ;D

- -

As far as the question about kits, large equipment and team brews, it's up to each individual comp to allow or exclude.
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Offline ipaguy

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Re: Shotgunning a Competition?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2011, 08:30:25 AM »
60 entries?!?!  :o

Do competition entries have to be original recipes?  If you copy a recipe or use a kit, do you have to keep the name or credit the original brewer, or can you make up your own name since you brewed it?  I guess what I'm asking is....does such a thing as 'beer plagiarizim' (sp?) exist?

I wouldn't worry about it too much. imo brewing good beer is maybe 20% recipe and 80% having a good process.  I don't think you need to retain the name, but when listing a recipe I think you should give credit if it's an exact copy.
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Offline alikocho

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Re: Shotgunning a Competition?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2011, 10:06:13 AM »
Do competition entries have to be original recipes?  If you copy a recipe or use a kit, do you have to keep the name or credit the original brewer, or can you make up your own name since you brewed it?  I guess what I'm asking is....does such a thing as 'beer plagiarizim' (sp?) exist?

Thanks



No. It's impossible to hold the copyright on a recipe (although you can hold it on the description of what to do), and even then that only applies to the replication of a recipe in print or online without credit.

It's also worth mentioning that anyone can follow a recipe, but it is the attention to detail that often sets a brewer apart from another. Thus, just because you have a book of JZ's award winning recipes, it does not follow that you will win awards with them. Brewing great beers means not just having a good recipe, but good processes.
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Offline rbclay

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Re: Shotgunning a Competition?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 12:14:35 PM »
I guess I don't understand why penalize someone for entering lots of beers? If their beers suck, they won't win. If their beer is good, they will win. Granted there is a bit of the luck of the draw involved in placing in competitions, but you definitely stand no chance if your beer sucks. If someone has the dough for entry fees, more power to them. I don't have the resources to enter and ship that many entries to a wide number of contests. I would love to, but just can't do it.

If you are running a contest and can only handle a limited number of entries, which is understandable, then you may want to consider having a limited entry window or a cut-off of entries at a given number, no?

Again, I don't get how by entering tons of beers you stand a better chance of winning? Winning should depend on the quality of the entries, not quantity. Granted, if you are going for the Ninkasi at Nationals you need to have that combination of lots of entries and high quality ones at that. We don't bash those brewers who have won Ninkasi, right? Are they "shotgunning"? I think not.
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Offline johnf

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Re: Shotgunning a Competition?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 02:40:29 PM »
I guess I don't understand why penalize someone for entering lots of beers? If their beers suck, they won't win. If their beer is good, they will win. Granted there is a bit of the luck of the draw involved in placing in competitions, but you definitely stand no chance if your beer sucks. If someone has the dough for entry fees, more power to them. I don't have the resources to enter and ship that many entries to a wide number of contests. I would love to, but just can't do it.

If you are running a contest and can only handle a limited number of entries, which is understandable, then you may want to consider having a limited entry window or a cut-off of entries at a given number, no?

Again, I don't get how by entering tons of beers you stand a better chance of winning? Winning should depend on the quality of the entries, not quantity. Granted, if you are going for the Ninkasi at Nationals you need to have that combination of lots of entries and high quality ones at that. We don't bash those brewers who have won Ninkasi, right? Are they "shotgunning"? I think not.

In Mike's case the rules of the circuit his clubs comp is part of require no entry limits. Let's say that a circuit has 5 competitions and you and I are trying to win the circuit. You are an excellent brewer and win a medal 50% of the time you enter. I am not quite as good and I win 20% of the time. You enter 10 beers per competition and I enter 50 per. I will beat you very badly in the circuit but by most measures you are the better brewer (you have won 25 medals with 50 beers).

Mike's club would rather not judge my 50 beers and the 20 you have to enter to compete with me.

Offline blatz

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Re: Shotgunning a Competition?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2011, 03:07:04 PM »
well said John - exactly what I was thinking, but couldn't articulate it as well.

rbclay, if you've ever run or judged at a competition that involved some participants that shotgunned, you'd understand why it sucks.

and believe me, the guys who enter 30,40,50+ beers aren't usually looking for feedback, and they don't usually read the sheets unless it didn't win and they want to know what the putz who didn't award it a medal wrote down.

and finally yes, some of the people entering the Ninkasi are shotgunning. there are plenty of brewers out there that brew as good or better than Gordon or Jamil but they just don't have the time, space or resources or all 3 to be able to generate the quantity needed to bully out the others.
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Offline rbclay

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Re: Shotgunning a Competition?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2011, 04:45:58 PM »
I have helped at a couple of competitions, but not enough to be "in the know" if there were "shotgunned" entrants. That's too bad people do that. I hadn't looked at winning a circuit like that. Probably because the only circuit I have considered entering is the Midwest HBOTY. Their scoring is weighted so shotgunning would have no effect. Brewing good beers across the board are awarded.
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Offline MDixon

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Re: Shotgunning a Competition?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2011, 07:29:48 PM »
Well said...I "gunned" for a circuit season back in the day...I sent 24 to a single comp once...ended up at the end of the year in 3rd place for all of NC, not bad when the second place winner took Ninkasi and the first place winner's beers were all amazing.
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