Author Topic: What is candi sugar?  (Read 4341 times)

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2011, 04:09:45 PM »
According to How to Brew, yeast can lose their ability to ferment maltose (from the malt) if there is too much simple sugar in the beer. The limit the author gave for sugar was 30% of the total OG for the wort. For five gallons, 30% is a whole lot of sugar. I added 2 pounds to some of my higher gravity beers with no issues (got 80% AA).
Does JP actually say they lose the ability to ferment it, or that they just won't?  Do you know the page by any chance?

I ask because it is very unlikely they lose their ability to ferment maltose.  They may not ferment it to completion in that batch, but that's not the same thing as losing the ability to do it.  If you took the yeast from that batch and fed it maltose I have no doubt it wouldn't have a problem.  I grow yeast all of the time in 100% glucose solutions (well, 2-10% glucose, but it's 100% of the sugar) and they have no problems transitioning to starter wort.
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Offline tubercle

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2011, 04:53:32 PM »
According to How to Brew, yeast can lose their ability to ferment maltose (from the malt) if there is too much simple sugar in the beer. The limit the author gave for sugar was 30% of the total OG for the wort. For five gallons, 30% is a whole lot of sugar. I added 2 pounds to some of my higher gravity beers with no issues (got 80% AA).
Does JP actually say they lose the ability to ferment it, or that they just won't?  Do you know the page by any chance?

I ask because it is very unlikely they lose their ability to ferment maltose.  They may not ferment it to completion in that batch, but that's not the same thing as losing the ability to do it.  If you took the yeast from that batch and fed it maltose I have no doubt it wouldn't have a problem.  I grow yeast all of the time in 100% glucose solutions (well, 2-10% glucose, but it's 100% of the sugar) and they have no problems transitioning to starter wort.


 +1 on that.

 Yeast are opportunity scavengers. They survive to reproduce.

 Different sugars might screw up their little minds a little bit but they adapt. Other wise they wouldn't have lasted millions of years.
 
 This is science as Tubercle understands it 8)
 
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Offline euge

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2011, 09:17:05 PM »
Table sugar is a fairly neutral adjunct. And like the others I see no ill effects except maybe too much can thin out a beer and screw up the balance of the finished product. For example ending up with too much alcohol and not enough sweetness to balance with either the alcohol or hops.

Early on in my brewing career I advocated large amounts of sugar up to 40%. Had success with this approach by kegging around 1.012 even if fermentation was still active. Chilling the keg would slow the fermentation enough for me to finish it without percieved ill affect. However, not halting the fermentation will result in a schlitz-like beverage.

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Offline ajk

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2011, 05:42:56 AM »
As for when to add it, I like making a syrup and adding it to primary after high kräusen.  For big beers, it seems to improve attenuation, especially if you do it bit by bit (incremental feeding).  I don't have any hard data on it, though.

Basic Brewing Radio did an episode on making sugar syrups, and a helpful listener put together a summary of the procedure.  I just made the double-stage deep amber syrup last night and added some of it to a Belgian Dubbel that had been fermenting.  I'm hoping to trade what was left over for beer bullets (I assume it tastes great in coffee, over cheesecake, etc.).

Offline 1vertical

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2011, 06:49:01 AM »
found this a while back for the adventurous...sounds like decent results

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/candi-syrup-experiment-trying-clone-d2-220882/
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Offline astrivian

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2011, 03:30:12 PM »
According to How to Brew, yeast can lose their ability to ferment maltose (from the malt) if there is too much simple sugar in the beer. The limit the author gave for sugar was 30% of the total OG for the wort. For five gallons, 30% is a whole lot of sugar. I added 2 pounds to some of my higher gravity beers with no issues (got 80% AA).
Does JP actually say they lose the ability to ferment it, or that they just won't?  Do you know the page by any chance?

I ask because it is very unlikely they lose their ability to ferment maltose.  They may not ferment it to completion in that batch, but that's not the same thing as losing the ability to do it.  If you took the yeast from that batch and fed it maltose I have no doubt it wouldn't have a problem.  I grow yeast all of the time in 100% glucose solutions (well, 2-10% glucose, but it's 100% of the sugar) and they have no problems transitioning to starter wort.

"In addition to the lack of nutrients, wort with a high percentage of refined sugar (about 30%) may cause the yeast to lose the ability to secrete the enzymes that allow them to ferment maltose, resulting in a stuck fermentation." (Palmer, p. 86)

He does use the qualifier "may."
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Offline nateo

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2011, 04:58:23 PM »
found this a while back for the adventurous...sounds like decent results

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/candi-syrup-experiment-trying-clone-d2-220882/

Hey, that's my thing! If anyone has any questions about it, I'd be happy to answer them. That thread got really long and cumbersome. At the end of those trials, I came up with something I'd consider as good or better than D2. Flavor-wise it was really close to D2, but the color wasn't quite there. Beer I've made with it were more like La Trappe than St. Bernardus, in color and flavor.

The next thing on my list is to make a syrup that tastes like whatever they put in St. Bernardus that makes it so chocolatey.
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Offline alikocho

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2011, 02:05:16 AM »
According to How to Brew, yeast can lose their ability to ferment maltose (from the malt) if there is too much simple sugar in the beer. The limit the author gave for sugar was 30% of the total OG for the wort. For five gallons, 30% is a whole lot of sugar. I added 2 pounds to some of my higher gravity beers with no issues (got 80% AA).
Does JP actually say they lose the ability to ferment it, or that they just won't?  Do you know the page by any chance?

I ask because it is very unlikely they lose their ability to ferment maltose.  They may not ferment it to completion in that batch, but that's not the same thing as losing the ability to do it.  If you took the yeast from that batch and fed it maltose I have no doubt it wouldn't have a problem.  I grow yeast all of the time in 100% glucose solutions (well, 2-10% glucose, but it's 100% of the sugar) and they have no problems transitioning to starter wort.

I don't have a page number for you, but it's come up on Brew Strong a couple of times. I think he says they lose the ability to ferment polysaccharides if they acclimatize to a monosaccharide environment. Whether this is actually the case, I do not know.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2011, 12:11:04 AM »
I just don't believe it at all.  In that batch, maybe they'll stop fermenting it because of a combination of factors with the trigger being a high percentage of glucose to start, but maybe not.  If John is right though, wouldn't every kit-and-kilo batch that Aussie brewers made be ridiculously sweet?  Those are more than 30% glucose, and while I haven't heard much good about those types of brews, I've never heard that they were cloying.

I grow yeast on glucose all of the time and this has never, ever happened to me.  I'll have to talk to John about it and see where he's getting his info and what the parameters of the experiments are.  It may be that when the source says "polysaccharide" they are referring specifically to more than two sugar molecules, since a two sugar chain is typically just called a disaccharide and not included in the polysaccharide term.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline orangehero

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2011, 09:07:07 PM »
See 12.5.8 Regulation of sugar metabolism in Brewing: Science and Practice by Briggs, Boulton, Brookes, Stevens.

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2011, 12:59:40 AM »
Ok - are you saying read it because it supports what I'm saying, or contradicts?  Because to me it agrees with what I said.
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Offline orangehero

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2012, 01:17:05 AM »
Ok - are you saying read it because it supports what I'm saying, or contradicts?  Because to me it agrees with what I said.

Have you investigated this further?

I can't find any mention that yeast lose the ability to ferment maltose either, only temporary inhibition.

I don't think it would make sense to talk about polysaccharides since the limit most strains of saccharomyces can ferment is maltotriose.

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2012, 02:27:51 PM »
Ok - are you saying read it because it supports what I'm saying, or contradicts?  Because to me it agrees with what I said.

Have you investigated this further?

I can't find any mention that yeast lose the ability to ferment maltose either, only temporary inhibition.

I don't think it would make sense to talk about polysaccharides since the limit most strains of saccharomyces can ferment is maltotriose.
I haven't, because I haven't found any credible source that says they actually lose the ability to ferment maltose.  Yes, in the presence of glucose they will not ferment maltose - it's called catabolite repression.  They preferentially ferment the glucose because it is easier.  Once the glucose is consumed they ferment the disaccharides - it's not a hard switch, just a general trend.

Perhaps it is a misunderstanding that they will lose their ability to ferment maltose.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2012, 02:33:47 PM »
We just had a presentation at my club about yeast and he mentioned this preferencial fermentation thing. The theory he put forth is that once the yeast is done with the simple sugars, if there were enough of them to start with, the ethanol concentration is high enough to interfere with the yeast's ability to continue fermenting the maltose. but there would have to be ALOT of sugar for that to happen I would think.
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Offline nateo

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Re: What is candi sugar?
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2012, 02:35:23 PM »
Any appreciable decrease in the ability to ferment maltose would show up in the attenuation of the wort. It's probably not a go/no-go thing, but more a sliding scale thing.
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