[bluesman]

I'm planning to brew this one up in the next week or so. What do you think? Good, bad or ugly...

Louis the Alt
Dusseldorf Altbier

 
Type: All Grain
Date: 2/27/2010
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Brewer: Bluesman
Boil Size: 6.62 gal Asst Brewer:  
Boil Time: 90 min  Equipment: My Equipment  
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0  Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:  
  
Ingredients
 
Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 68.93 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 9.19 %
1.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 9.19 %
0.75 lb Caramunich Malt 2 (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.89 %
0.50 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 4.60 %
0.13 lb Carafa I (319.0 SRM) Grain 1.19 %
0.75 oz Magnum [14.20 %] (60 min) Hops 31.3 IBU
2.00 oz Hallertauer [4.00 %] (20 min) Hops 14.2 IBU
1.00 oz Tettnanger [4.90 %] (10 min) Hops 5.2 IBU
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc  
5.50 gal Poland Spring (R) Water  
1 Pkgs European Ale (White Labs #WLP011) [Starter 1730 ml] Yeast-Ale  

Beer Profile
 
Est Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.40 %  
Bitterness: 50.8 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 12.6 SRM Color: Color  
 
Mash Profile
 
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 10.88 lb
Sparge Water: 0.78 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
  
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 13.60 qt of water at 160.2 F 149.0 F
10 min Sparge Add 14.98 qt of water at 187.8 F 168.0 F

Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage
 
Carbonation Type: Kegged (Forced CO2) Volumes of CO2: 2.4

[pjj2ba]

I'd lose the caramunich and melanoidin and substitute them with 1.25 lbs more of munich.  I'd also cut your 20 min. hop addition in half.  Maybe bump up the Magnum to keep the same IBUs.  To be authentic, you want only the slightest hints of hop flavor, and aroma - if any at all.

[bluesman]

According to the style guidelines, not that I'm a style nazi or anything, it specifies moderate to low noble hop flavor. I wonder if there is a way to assign an IBU% to the bitterness of a specific style of ale. For instance, "low to moderate" hop flavor could be 25%+or- of the total IBU's in the beer.

If one were to take the top ten examples from a given style and attribute average IBU's for bitterness, flavor and aroma. I don't think this data has been compiled in such a format but I believe it would be useful to know when creating recipes for a specific style of beer.

[redbeerman]

Ron, have you tried a Zum Uerige alt yet?  That will give you an idea of what the flavor profile is like.  To my recollection, the bitterness is quite high and it has a very clean crisp finish.  It does have a malty flavor, but no sweet.  I don't remember any hop flavor or aroma.

[Hokerer]

If one were to take the top ten examples from a given style and attribute average IBU's for bitterness, flavor and aroma. I don't think this data has been compiled in such a format but I believe it would be useful to know when creating recipes for a specific style of beer.

That would be pretty difficult since, often times (flameout or dry hop) the aroma additions add 0 IBU's.

[denny]

Here's a recipe fro Zum Uerige, right from the brewmaster....

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/40327/42592.html

[bluesman]

Here's a recipe fro Zum Uerige, right from the brewmaster....

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/40327/42592.html

Thanks for that one Denny.

[hopfenundmalz]

That is what I did today.  I have lost 5 or 6 afternoons at Zum Uerige, 0.25 liters at a time.

What Denny posted is what I remember the guy who was shoveling grain told me as I was on my way back from the mens room (the mash dumps to the floor right by there).  Pils, Cara-maltz, farbemaltz (color malt).  Pearle, Hallertau, Spalt.  I did the 4 step mash today.

I used Kai's water profile.  I have come 3/4's of the way to Zum Uerige, and I hope this nails it.   

[bluesman]

I put together a clone loosely based on Zum Uerige from Dr. Frank Hebmuller. Thanks again for the link Denny. I need to get my water closer to that regions profile. How can I get there with a Poland Spring base.

This is going to be triple decocted with a sparge  @  125, 144, 158, 169

Here's the recipe so far...Revision A.

Zum Uerige Loose Clone
Dusseldorf Altbier

 
Type: All Grain
Date: 2/27/2010
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Brewer: Bluesman
Boil Size: 6.62 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
  
Ingredients
 
Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 85.15 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 9.46 %
0.38 lb Caramunich Malt 2 (60.0 SRM) Grain 3.60 %
0.19 lb Carafa I (319.0 SRM) Grain 1.80 %
1.00 oz Pearle [8.00 %] (60 min) Hops 26.4 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.00 %] (60 min) Hops 11.9 IBU
1.00 oz Tettnanger [4.90 %] (20 min) Hops 8.8 IBU
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc  
5.50 gal Poland Spring (R) Water  
1 Pkgs European Ale (White Labs #WLP011) [Starter 1800 ml] Yeast-Ale  

Beer Profile
 
Est Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.017 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.77 %
Bitterness: 47.0 IBU
Est Color: 11.7 SRM
 
Mash Profile
 
Mash Name: Decoction Mash, Triple Total Grain Weight: 10.57 lb
Sparge Water: 2.60 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH
  
Decoction Mash, Triple Step Time Name Description Step Temp
30 min Protein Rest Decoct 16.0 qt of mash and boil it 125.0 F
15 min Saccharification Decoct 5.34 qt of mash and boil it 144.0 F
15 min Saccharification Decoct 5.03 qt of mash and boil it 158.0 F
Sparge with 16.0 qt Heat to 169.0 F over 10 min

 
  
Mash Notes: Authentic Germany mash schedule. Attempt to draw decoction from the thickest portion of the mash. Some sources recommend that each decoction amount be given a 15 minute saccharification rest at 158 F (70 C) before boiling it.
Carbonation and Storage
 
Carbonation Type: Kegged (Forced CO2) Volumes of CO2: 2.4
Pressure/Weight: 21.6 PSI Carbonation Used: -
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 60.0 F Age for: 21.0 days
Storage Temperature: 36.0 F  

[Kaiser]

How can I get there with a Poland Spring base.

I guess the problem is that you don't know what you start with. Although I know the city water profile of Duesseldorf I don't know what the water profile for Zum Uerige is. Supposedly they have a deep well for their water.

Kai

[bluesman]

How can I get there with a Poland Spring base.

I guess the problem is that you don't know what you start with. Although I know the city water profile of Duesseldorf I don't know what the water profile for Zum Uerige is. Supposedly they have a deep well for their water.

Kai

Here's the Poland Spring Water Mineral Profile as published.

Poland Spring® Natural Spring Water — Mineral content analysis
View the full mineral analysis of our spring water.  Read our bottled water quality report (PDF).

Inorganic Minerals and Metals MRL MCL Level Found
Calcium 0.10 NR 4.4-7.7
Sodium 0.20 NR 3.9-7.4
Potassium 0.10 NR 0.65-1.0
Fluoride 0.100 2.0 (1.4-2.4) 0.11-0.12
Magnesium 0.10 NR 0.91-1.2
Bicarbonate 1.0 NR 6.7-20
Nitrate 0.010 10.00 0.22-0.85
Chloride 1.10 250 5.5-13
Copper 0.050 1.0 ND
pH (units) NA NA 5.72-6.68
Sulfate 0.10 250 2.0-5.8
Arsenic 0.0014 0.010 ND
Lead 0.005 0.005 ND
Total Dissolved Solids 1.0 NR 35-46
All units in (mg/l) or Parts per Million (PPM)
 

[redbeerman]

Your recipe looks good.  I'm thinking your FG will be lower than 1.017, which is a good thing, if I recall the body of this beer is medium to medium light.  Your water may be a bit soft, but I think you should give it a try.

[bluesman]

Your water may be a bit soft, but I think you should give it a try.

I'm thinking that might be a last resort, especially if I can't get any info on the Dusseldorf water profile.

[Kaiser]

...especially if I can't get any info on the Dusseldorf water profile.

I guess I'm on the hook for that

The idea of using the Duesseldorf city water is that it seems to be suitable for brewing Altbiers and therefore I assume that a number of Altbier breweries use it. I meant to publis it as a water recipe but haven't done that yet. But you can find it here as I used it as an example:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk#Calculating_the_salt_additions

If you don't dissolve the chalk you'll have to double the amount of chalk you add since it is less potent in neutralizing the malt acidity when not dissolved with CO2.

I was also playing with the addition of a new feature to my spreadsheet. This would allow you to specify a target water profile and weights for the particular ions. Then it calculates an error between the current profile and the target profile. Using the solver in Excel or OpenOffice you can then determine what salt additions would work best to match that profile. But it didn't work as expected with the OpenOffice solver and I haven't tried Excel yet.

Kai

[bluesman]

...especially if I can't get any info on the Dusseldorf water profile.

I guess I'm on the hook for that

The idea of using the Duesseldorf city water is that it seems to be suitable for brewing Altbiers and therefore I assume that a number of Altbier breweries use it. I meant to publis it as a water recipe but haven't done that yet. But you can find it here as I used it as an example:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk#Calculating_the_salt_additions

If you don't dissolve the chalk you'll have to double the amount of chalk you add since it is less potent in neutralizing the malt acidity when not dissolved with CO2.

I was also playing with the addition of a new feature to my spreadsheet. This would allow you to specify a target water profile and weights for the particular ions. Then it calculates an error between the current profile and the target profile. Using the solver in Excel or OpenOffice you can then determine what salt additions would work best to match that profile. But it didn't work as expected with the OpenOffice solver and I haven't tried Excel yet.

Kai

Kai...I was checking out your website last night and in particular the water treatment page.

So dissolving regular ground chalk...calcium carbonate into my Poland spring water will get me closer to a Dusseldorf water profile.

I guess I'll need to calculate how much based on my current CaCO3 and the targeted amount using your spreadsheet.

I'll have to find some time this weekend to look it over.

Thanks for you help.

You are The King of all Imperial Beer Geeks! 

My hat's off to you Kai.