[yso191]

In my very limited experience with this yeast, if you just let it ramp up and go, it will blow past the phenolic stage. The fruityness is much more pronounced at temperatures over 75F. You also seem to need to follow their pitching rate guidelines. I effectively turned off the jacket on our fermenter when I pitched this and it went up from 68, topping out at around 85 before hitting terminal gravity and falling back down on its own.

I really enjoy Belgian beers, but have had only marginal success with the few I have brewed.  Primarily it has been a lack of the esters and phenols I wanted, and I assume it was because I fermented too cool.  The primary reason I am hesitant to ferment warmer is that I want to minimize production of fusel alcohols.  So my question is, is this something I should concern myself with, or does Belgian yeast not produce as much fusel alc. at higher temps like other ale yeasts?

[majorvices]

IMO if you are using low alpha hops for buttering you are wasting hops and wort. There's not going to be much flavor left after a 60 minute boil and the amount of wort absorption becomes significant.

IMO American high alpha hops do not work well in European beers.  I have used Magnum in the past for bittering and I think it works really well, but I just don't make enough beer over the year to justify a pound of it.  My American styles will use Columbus and Chinook for bittering and that's fine for an American ale style.  Now that you're pro Keith, you will look at things differently than I do and that's OK.  Money's not a big driver for me as far as brewing is concerned, so I tend to stick more to tradition.

I've actually never tried a high alpha American hop in European style beers so I can't comment but I've used magnum for a long, long time and for those styles I think it works best. Less hop and vegal matter in bk. but that's just me.


Errr ... sorry for the hijack boys and thanks for the feedback on the strain. Looking forward to using it soon.

[thebigbaker]

Steve - I'm not sure of the science behind it, but I've done a couple of Belgian beers which I started ferment temps in the mid 60s and let it ramp up to 78-80 by the time "active" fermentation was over.  These beers came out great and had no presence of any fusels.  The yeast I have done this with is 3711 and 3787.

Kyle - thanks for the feedback on the strain, gonna grab some and try it out soon.

[kramerog]

The primary reason I am hesitant to ferment warmer is that I want to minimize production of fusel alcohols.  So my question is, is this something I should concern myself with, or does Belgian yeast not produce as much fusel alc. at higher temps like other ale yeasts?

"Brew Like A Monk,"  IIRC, says Belgian ale yeasts produce less fusels than ale yeasts.  It recounts that a Trappist monastery will allow fermentation temps hit the high 80s (possibly low 90s) although fermentation temps that high are not the norm.

[Joe Sr.]

The primary reason I am hesitant to ferment warmer is that I want to minimize production of fusel alcohols.  So my question is, is this something I should concern myself with, or does Belgian yeast not produce as much fusel alc. at higher temps like other ale yeasts?

"Brew Like A Monk,"  IIRC, says Belgian ale yeasts produce less fusels than ale yeasts.  It recounts that a Trappist monastery will allow fermentation temps hit the high 80s (possibly low 90s) although fermentation temps that high are not the norm.

Correct.  But I believe they are pitching at normal ale temps (low 60s or so) and letting it ramp up from there.  I think you'd need to be fermenting the entire time in the high 70s or above to really get a fusel bomb.  I had 10 gallons of wheat hit 78 last summer before I got it cooled back down and the beer did not seem to suffer unduly from the high temp.  No big headaches.  No fusel flavors.  And I was quite paranoid about it.  Regardless of that experience, I would not recommend high temps.  For Belgians, I would pitch low, keep it low for 48 or so and then let it go where it wants to.

[denny]

I've actually never tried a high alpha American hop in European style beers so I can't comment but I've used magnum for a long, long time and for those styles I think it works best. Less hop and vegal matter in bk. but that's just me.


Errr ... sorry for the hijack boys and thanks for the feedback on the strain. Looking forward to using it soon.

I've used Horizon many times in Belgian beers and it seems to work great.

[redbeerman]

I've actually never tried a high alpha American hop in European style beers so I can't comment but I've used magnum for a long, long time and for those styles I think it works best. Less hop and vegal matter in bk. but that's just me.


Errr ... sorry for the hijack boys and thanks for the feedback on the strain. Looking forward to using it soon.

I've used Horizon many times in Belgian beers and it seems to work great.

I've never used Horizon.  It looks like it would be acceptable though.  I look for a clean bittering hop for my European beers, Magnum certainly fits the bill, Horizon looks like it would too, but I usually buy hops by the pound and a pound of high alpha hops for low to moderately bitter beers would last me a couple of years.  Using a couple of ounces of noble hopes for bittering is not that big a deal to me.  That being said, I can't wait to try this yeast, but my basement is rather cool still (will spring ever get here!), and my fermentation chamber has a German Pilsner in it presently.

[majorvices]

Thanks, never used horizon before but will keep that in mind.

As far as Belgian brewers practices and homebrewers I will remind y'all we ain't Belgian brewers. what may work for them and their techniques are vastly different from ours. We can try to mimic their practices but only to a certain degree. After much experimentation I have found that a relatively cool to works best for my Belgians/saison a. I usually ferment in the low to mid 60s for most Belgian/saison strains. The only one I found that really does work better at a warmer temp is 565 but even that I am starting in the 60s and ramping slowly into the 70s and low 80s.

[kylekohlmorgen]

Thanks, never used horizon before but will keep that in mind.

As far as Belgian brewers practices and homebrewers I will remind y'all we ain't Belgian brewers.

Yup.

The problem I have with an uncontrolled, high temperature ramp is keeping the temperature up as fermentation slows. I can get the temp up to 80F, but even in an insulated fridge with a brew belt, a 5 gal bucket of wort isnt enough thermal mass to hold that temp until fermentation is complete.

This is the main reason why (I think) I've had fusel/phenol problems with Belgian beers in the past. Its a double-edged sword.

Pitch too low or control to 'normal' ferm temps = too low of a flavor contribution from the yeast

Pitch to high or dont control temp = temp drop at end of ferment, stressed yeast, fusels/phenols, poor attenuation.

Is this just a balancing act I haven't mastered yet?

[narcout]

In future saisons, I was thinking about using Saaz/Styr Goldings throughout, with good-sized additions at FWH, 30, 15, and after KO.

I stole this Saison hop regimen from a Northern Brewer recipe, but I really like it (for a 5 gallon batch):

1 oz EKG - 60 min
.25 oz each of Saaz and Styrian Goldings - 10 min
.75 oz each of Saaz and Styrian Goldings - 2 min

Pitch too low or control to 'normal' ferm temps = too low of a flavor contribution from the yeast

Pitch to high or dont control temp = temp drop at end of ferment, stressed yeast, fusels/phenols, poor attenuation.

Is this just a balancing act I haven't mastered yet?

I brew mostly Belgians, and I've had the best success (at least with 3711, 3522 and 3787) pitching in the low 60s, fermenting in the upper 60s for 36 hours, then letting it rise up naturally into the low to mid 70s.

I'm always nervous about keeping it too cool for too long or letting it get too warm too soon.

[yso191]

I brew mostly Belgians, and I've had the best success (at least with 3711, 3522 and 3787) pitching in the low 60s, fermenting in the upper 60s for 36 hours, then letting it rise up naturally into the low to mid 70s.

I'm always nervous about keeping it too cool for too long or letting it get too warm too soon.

This statement and others I have read like it raise questions.  Does it assume 70* surroundings?  Is it the yeast or the surrounding air temp that lets it 'rise naturally' into the low or mid 70's? 

I ferment in a kegerator with a 2 stage controller (controls heating and cooling), and it sits in my unheated / uncooled garage.  During the winter it stays about 45*, during the Summer it stays about 80*.  So I cannot rely on ambient temperature to provide a happy medium.

I have only read insufficient explanations in that there are so many variables not dealt with, one could end up way off base.  So I guess my confusion lies in the statement "letting it rise naturally."  I don't see that happening in my situation, so how do I replicate it through temperature control?

[andyi]

+1 to yso191 for yeasts and temps.

I just brewed with belle saison (nice to not mess  with a starter)
1.052-1002 in two weeks (1.008 week 1). 
Light grapefruit, citrus, dry, tart with med mouthfeel.
temps mid 66F - 74F

[narcout]

This statement and others I have read like it raise questions.  Does it assume 70* surroundings?  Is it the yeast or the surrounding air temp that lets it 'rise naturally' into the low or mid 70's?

I live in Southern California, and the ambient temp in my fermentation area (in which sits the fermentation chest freezer) varies between 65 and 75 degrees depending on the time of year.  In my case, it is a combination of the surrounding air temp and the heat generated by the yeast during fermentation that lets the temp rise into the 70s.   

I ferment in a kegerator with a 2 stage controller (controls heating and cooling), and it sits in my unheated / uncooled garage.  During the winter it stays about 45*, during the Summer it stays about 80*.  So I cannot rely on ambient temperature to provide a happy medium.

I have only read insufficient explanations in that there are so many variables not dealt with, one could end up way off base.  So I guess my confusion lies in the statement "letting it rise naturally."  I don't see that happening in my situation, so how do I replicate it through temperature control?

If you have a two stage controller and are fermenting in a kegerator, can't you hook up your controller to both the kegerator and a heating source to keep fermentation temperatures exactly where you want them?

Although I rarely have to use it, I do have one of these heaters that I can tape to the inside of my chest freezer if I need to bring the temperature up a bit.  It works pretty well.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/electric-fermentation-heater.html

[yso191]

 

If you have a two stage controller and are fermenting in a kegerator, can't you hook up your controller to both the kegerator and a heating source to keep fermentation temperatures exactly where you want them?

That is precisely the issue.  Yes I can, and yes I do.  Since I can't rely on atmospheric temperature I have to control it.  So my question is how?  What should that temperature pattern look like for a Belgian?

[redbeerman]

I do ferment most of my Belgians in the low to mid 60s as well.  And 565 is the yeast that causes me the most grief.  Isus is, my basement is in the low to mid 50s this winter and that is casuing me grief.  My fermentation chamber, thankfully is programmable between -5C and 80C, which gives me all the temp control I need (it is glycol based).  Problem is, can't do a lager and an ale at the same time.   I do agree with all that has been said here, and am happy to see folks have had good results with the Belle Saison strain at normal (for us homebrewers) fermentation temperatures.  If it can get down to 1.002, that's great!  I'm not a fan of WY3711, the mouthfeel is weird to me.  I prefer 565 for my Saisons even if it is a PITA to use.