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Decoctions also have a high gravity level. Somewhere I read that also helps to minimize tannin extraction. Even with adjusted pH sparge water you need to watch the gravity of the runnings, and stop in the 3 or 4 Plato range. If you go too low you can still get astringency - taste those last runnings. I know this from experience.
Quote from: Kinetic on June 29, 2014, 05:37:07 amThe decoction doesn't extract tannins, therefore a hot sparge won't extract tannins theory is debunked. From BYO:Decoction mashing extracts more tannins than an infusion mash. Along with gelating the starch, boiling the mash extracts husk compounds, including polyphenols (tannins). The level of tannin extraction, however, is fairly low and some maintain that this low level actually benefits the flavor of the beer. If a low, pleasing amount of tannin extraction is a piece of “decoction mash character,” then simply adding Munich or melanoidin malt would not capture that character exactly.Homebrewers used to infusion mashing may wonder how a decoction could be boiled without extracting a large amount of tannins and yielding a very astringent beer. After all, when lautering, they are repeatedly told that their grain bed temperature should never exceed 170 °C (77 °C). The key to understanding this apparent discrepancy is understanding when tannins are soluble in wort. Increased heat and increased pH both favor tannin extraction. At lower pH values, such as those found in a thick mash, tannin extraction from grain husks is minimal even at boiling temperatures. At higher pH values — such as those in a grain bed that has been extensively sparged — excess tannin extraction occurs at a much lower temperature.https://byo.com/stories/item/537-decoction-mashing-techniquesYour quote supports the argument that pH is key and that decoction doesn't extract an unpleasent (fault level) amount of tannins. so not so much debunked as clarified. It's all about flavor thresholds.
The decoction doesn't extract tannins, therefore a hot sparge won't extract tannins theory is debunked. From BYO:Decoction mashing extracts more tannins than an infusion mash. Along with gelating the starch, boiling the mash extracts husk compounds, including polyphenols (tannins). The level of tannin extraction, however, is fairly low and some maintain that this low level actually benefits the flavor of the beer. If a low, pleasing amount of tannin extraction is a piece of “decoction mash character,” then simply adding Munich or melanoidin malt would not capture that character exactly.Homebrewers used to infusion mashing may wonder how a decoction could be boiled without extracting a large amount of tannins and yielding a very astringent beer. After all, when lautering, they are repeatedly told that their grain bed temperature should never exceed 170 °C (77 °C). The key to understanding this apparent discrepancy is understanding when tannins are soluble in wort. Increased heat and increased pH both favor tannin extraction. At lower pH values, such as those found in a thick mash, tannin extraction from grain husks is minimal even at boiling temperatures. At higher pH values — such as those in a grain bed that has been extensively sparged — excess tannin extraction occurs at a much lower temperature.https://byo.com/stories/item/537-decoction-mashing-techniques
My point was one can not draw conclusions about sparging based on decocoction. They are different processes with different variables. I have no problem believing a hotter sparge at the right pH can produce unobjectionable results.
Quote from: Kinetic on June 29, 2014, 01:48:11 pmMy point was one can not draw conclusions about sparging based on decocoction. They are different processes with different variables. I have no problem believing a hotter sparge at the right pH can produce unobjectionable results.But isn't it basically the same process? Heating the grains above what's usually considered a "safe" temp? How hot would you say you need to be to get tannins even with a "safe" pH? I've accidentally sparged with water in excess of 200F and didn't get objectionable tannins.
Quote from: hopfenundmalz on June 29, 2014, 07:47:12 amDecoctions also have a high gravity level. Somewhere I read that also helps to minimize tannin extraction. Even with adjusted pH sparge water you need to watch the gravity of the runnings, and stop in the 3 or 4 Plato range. If you go too low you can still get astringency - taste those last runnings. I know this from experience.What you're referring to is gravity as an indicator of pH. The way I see it is that with higher gravity, the grain retains more buffering ability.
I over heated my sparge water to 192F this past weekend. I cursed, then I decided to sparge anyway because Denny claims it won't make an objectionable beer if the sparge pH is right.I sure hope Denny didn't ruin my beer. Time will tell. Wish me luck.
I may have to cut the batch with 50% PBR just to soften the tannins.
PBR won a medal at GABF this year. I think it has won several medals over the years. It can't be that bad, but I don't plan on buying it to find out. Light lagers aren't something I enjoy much.
Topic: Batch Sparge Water Temp (Read 15419 times)
