[reverseapachemaster]

Anybody desperate to distinguish DMS from other corn-esque aromas in beer need only leave some wort in a jar outside overnight and let it ferment for a few days. Give it a good whiff. You will almost certainly have that terrible overboiled cabbage and corn smell of DMS strong enough that it will be apparent to almost anybody. When you get a big punch of DMS it's clearly not H2S or the presence of corn.

If the results of this experiment are that with a vigorous boil, sufficient surface area and well modified pils malt one does not need a ninety minute boil then I can accept those results are likely accurate. What I find unusual about the results is that there is a visual distinction between the beers but no discernible difference between the boils even discounting the absence of DMS. If the difference in boil time was sufficient to produce caramelization or mellanoidin formation then we should expect to see some change in the flavor to account for all the reactions taking place during the longer boil.

[69franx]

Anybody desperate to distinguish DMS from other corn-esque aromas in beer need only leave some wort in a jar outside overnight and let it ferment for a few days. Give it a good whiff. You will almost certainly have that terrible overboiled cabbage and corn smell of DMS strong enough that it will be apparent to almost anybody. When you get a big punch of DMS it's clearly not H2S or the presence of corn.

If the results of this experiment are that with a vigorous boil, sufficient surface area and well modified pils malt one does not need a ninety minute boil then I can accept those results are likely accurate. What I find unusual about the results is that there is a visual distinction between the beers but no discernible difference between the boils even discounting the absence of DMS. If the difference in boil time was sufficient to produce caramelization or mellanoidin formation then we should expect to see some change in the flavor to account for all the reactions taking place during the longer boil.

+1, exactly what I was trying to say yesterday, you just said it so much more effectively than I.

[dmtaylor]

But I've also heard it said by some experts that melanoidins produced during the boil are flavorless and contribute only color and not flavor.  Caramelization is also a negligible factor until gravity gets really high or unless making a steinbier or something where the heat source is localized and hundreds of degrees hotter than the conventional gas burner or stovetop.  All sorts of things to ponder, and to experiment more on!

[Biran]

How are you certain it was DMS? I think a lot of people mistake actual good Pils malt character with DMS because they're looking so hard for something different.

American 6-row malt, 60 minute boil, lid on kettle.  One of my earlier brews.  I knew something was wrong so I took it to a friend of mine who is a BJCP recognized judge.  It had so much DMS that he asked for another bottle so he could take it to his home brew club because he was preparing a presentation on off flavors.  I gave him the remainder of the batch.

Look, I appreciate and respect what you are doing, but since I can't taste your beer I can only take your findings with a grain of salt.  I'm not trying to be mean, that is just how I feel.

[beersk]

But I've also heard it said by some experts that melanoidins produced during the boil are flavorless and contribute only color and not flavor.  Caramelization is also a negligible factor until gravity gets really high or unless making a steinbier or something where the heat source is localized and hundreds of degrees hotter than the conventional gas burner or stovetop.  All sorts of things to ponder, and to experiment more on!

Well, it certainly does explain how Pilsner Urquell gets a lot of it's color and flavor by the really long boil they employ. Don't they boil for like 3 hours? I doubt it's from doing decoction alone.

[denny]

Well I'm neurotic enough to think, "Okay, but what if I don't boil as vigorously as Marshall did and lose a five gallon batch?"  I have had beers with DMS and I absolutely can't stand it.

Oh, come on!  It's only beer.  It's not just Marshall...it's also me and a LOT of other people.  Stop living in the past! 

[chumley]

But I've also heard it said by some experts that melanoidins produced during the boil are flavorless and contribute only color and not flavor.  Caramelization is also a negligible factor until gravity gets really high or unless making a steinbier or something where the heat source is localized and hundreds of degrees hotter than the conventional gas burner or stovetop.  All sorts of things to ponder, and to experiment more on!

Well, it certainly does explain how Pilsner Urquell gets a lot of it's color and flavor by the really long boil they employ. Don't they boil for like 3 hours? I doubt it's from doing decoction alone.

My recollection from the PU tour is that the three hour boil is more like a "fast" simmer, rather than a vigorous boil.

The PU tour guide (this was in 2002, so my memory may be a bit hazy) said that when PU modernized the brewery in the early 1990s with modern German equipment, they experimented with several parameters in the brewing process.  They then had a tasting panel, those workers in the brewery who were determined to have the most sensitive palettes, to taste the beers and see if it made a difference in the product.  They determined that using stainless steel conical fermentors made no discernible difference compared with the traditional wood fermentors.  But, triple decoction was kept, as well as the long simmer/boil.

[beersk]

My recollection from the PU tour is that the three hour boil is more like a "fast" simmer, rather than a vigorous boil.

The PU tour guide (this was in 2002, so my memory may be a bit hazy) said that when PU modernized the brewery in the early 1990s with modern German equipment, they experimented with several parameters in the brewing process.  They then had a tasting panel, those workers in the brewery who were determined to have the most sensitive palettes, to taste the beers and see if it made a difference in the product.  They determined that using stainless steel conical fermentors made no discernible difference compared with the traditional wood fermentors.  But, triple decoction was kept, as well as the long simmer/boil.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

[BrodyR]

Great post - I'm tempted to try a 30m boil and 30m mash in a 3 gallon BIAB one work night to try out a really quick brew day.

[brulosopher]

How are you certain it was DMS? I think a lot of people mistake actual good Pils malt character with DMS because they're looking so hard for something different.

American 6-row malt, 60 minute boil, lid on kettle.  One of my earlier brews.  I knew something was wrong so I took it to a friend of mine who is a BJCP recognized judge.  It had so much DMS that he asked for another bottle so he could take it to his home brew club because he was preparing a presentation on off flavors.  I gave him the remainder of the batch.

Look, I appreciate and respect what you are doing, but since I can't taste your beer I can only take your findings with a grain of salt.  I'm not trying to be mean, that is just how I feel.

Not mean at all! What you choose to believe is your prerogative, the purpose of the xBmts certainly isn't to change the minds of others, just give some food for thought.

Great post - I'm tempted to try a 30m boil and 30m mash in a 3 gallon BIAB one work night to try out a really quick brew day.

I have similar plans

[beersk]

How are you certain it was DMS? I think a lot of people mistake actual good Pils malt character with DMS because they're looking so hard for something different.

American 6-row malt, 60 minute boil, lid on kettle.  One of my earlier brews.  I knew something was wrong so I took it to a friend of mine who is a BJCP recognized judge.  It had so much DMS that he asked for another bottle so he could take it to his home brew club because he was preparing a presentation on off flavors.  I gave him the remainder of the batch.

Look, I appreciate and respect what you are doing, but since I can't taste your beer I can only take your findings with a grain of salt.  I'm not trying to be mean, that is just how I feel.

Not mean at all! What you choose to believe is your prerogative, the purpose of the xBmts certainly isn't to change the minds of others, just give some food for thought.

Hmmm, I don't think there's anything wrong with stating the purpose of the xBmts is to change peoples minds about old ideas. I certainly would say this one is.

[brulosopher]

How are you certain it was DMS? I think a lot of people mistake actual good Pils malt character with DMS because they're looking so hard for something different.

American 6-row malt, 60 minute boil, lid on kettle.  One of my earlier brews.  I knew something was wrong so I took it to a friend of mine who is a BJCP recognized judge.  It had so much DMS that he asked for another bottle so he could take it to his home brew club because he was preparing a presentation on off flavors.  I gave him the remainder of the batch.

Look, I appreciate and respect what you are doing, but since I can't taste your beer I can only take your findings with a grain of salt.  I'm not trying to be mean, that is just how I feel.

Not mean at all! What you choose to believe is your prerogative, the purpose of the xBmts certainly isn't to change the minds of others, just give some food for thought.

Hmmm, I don't think there's anything wrong with stating the purpose of the xBmts is to change peoples minds about old ideas. I certainly would say this one is.

The SOLE purpose

[beersk]

The SOUL purpose. Then you need to tell Valleyoak, that, yes, the purpose of the xBmts IS to change people's minds about these ideas. You had stated that they weren't. In any case, I certainly appreciate what you're doing. Whether you actually do change people's minds or not, you're still getting good data to give those naysayers food for thought. Valleyoak needs to try this himself, apparently, if he is going to have his mind changed. Unless he really doesn't mind boiling for 90 minutes...it's only 30 minutes. All we TRULY have on this planet, in this life, is TIME. But life is short, every little bit counts.

[wobdee]

But I've also heard it said by some experts that melanoidins produced during the boil are flavorless and contribute only color and not flavor.  Caramelization is also a negligible factor until gravity gets really high or unless making a steinbier or something where the heat source is localized and hundreds of degrees hotter than the conventional gas burner or stovetop.  All sorts of things to ponder, and to experiment more on!

Well, it certainly does explain how Pilsner Urquell gets a lot of it's color and flavor by the really long boil they employ. Don't they boil for like 3 hours? I doubt it's from doing decoction alone.

Sounds like another exbeeriment. I've been wanting to try an all Pilsner malt brew with a 3+ hour boil and compare it to my normal 90 min.

[BrodyR]

How are you certain it was DMS? I think a lot of people mistake actual good Pils malt character with DMS because they're looking so hard for something different.

American 6-row malt, 60 minute boil, lid on kettle.  One of my earlier brews.  I knew something was wrong so I took it to a friend of mine who is a BJCP recognized judge.  It had so much DMS that he asked for another bottle so he could take it to his home brew club because he was preparing a presentation on off flavors.  I gave him the remainder of the batch.

Look, I appreciate and respect what you are doing, but since I can't taste your beer I can only take your findings with a grain of salt.  I'm not trying to be mean, that is just how I feel.

Not mean at all! What you choose to believe is your prerogative, the purpose of the xBmts certainly isn't to change the minds of others, just give some food for thought.

Great post - I'm tempted to try a 30m boil and 30m mash in a 3 gallon BIAB one work night to try out a really quick brew day.

I have similar plans

What I'd really love to see is a BIAB, short boil, short mash, shake to oxygenate batch up against a traditional fly-sparge 3-tiered system with pure 02.

But talk about a lot of variables.