[klickitat jim]

Jim:  When you say 'drop the SO4-CaCl' balance, are you saying to lower the sulfate?  This is one area I have looked carefully at in terms of this recipe.  All of my water numbers are modest (Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27) and my goal was to use enough gypsum in the mash to bring out some dryness in the finish.  I realize this could be accomplished with a lower mash temp (possibly) and I also realize that more gypsum in the mash will not counter a high FG or a cloying maltiness brought on by too much dark munich.  My water profile for this batch is set to 'balanced' with something like... (I just checked the water page on my recipe)... 48ppm cl and 49ppm SO4.  These are low numbers that slightly favor SO4.  Thoughts on that?

I've been told about the SO4 to CaCl ration in the past. I don't know, I usually go by what is being said until I run into issues. My last batch, brewed last winter, went to MChrispen who liked it. Also went to a good sized comp in Bend were it didn't do well. Then to Dr Homebrew where they gave it mid 30s scores. One takeaway somewhat common denominator was a light chemical thing that ended up being attributed to my use of SO4. In that one I think I had about 80ppm calcium from equal parts SO4 and CaCl in distilled water. So in my next batch I'm going with just CaCl to see what I get.

I'm fixing three things at once though (calcium sorce, attenuation, and hopping) so it will be difficult to really say which did what.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

Jim:  When you say 'drop the SO4-CaCl' balance, are you saying to lower the sulfate?  This is one area I have looked carefully at in terms of this recipe.  All of my water numbers are modest (Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27) and my goal was to use enough gypsum in the mash to bring out some dryness in the finish.  I realize this could be accomplished with a lower mash temp (possibly) and I also realize that more gypsum in the mash will not counter a high FG or a cloying maltiness brought on by too much dark munich.  My water profile for this batch is set to 'balanced' with something like... (I just checked the water page on my recipe)... 48ppm cl and 49ppm SO4.  These are low numbers that slightly favor SO4.  Thoughts on that?

I've been told about the SO4 to CaCl ration in the past. I don't know, I usually go by what is being said until I run into issues. My last batch, brewed last winter, went to MChrispen who liked it. Also went to a good sized comp in Bend were it didn't do well. Then to Dr Homebrew where they gave it mid 30s scores. One takeaway somewhat common denominator was a light chemical thing that ended up being attributed to my use of SO4. In that one I think I had about 80ppm calcium from equal parts SO4 and CaCl in distilled water. So in my next batch I'm going with just CaCl to see what I get.

I'm fixing three things at once though (calcium sorce, attenuation, and hopping) so it will be difficult to really say which did what.

just a thought Jim- lowering or eliminating the gypsum and using epsom to get moderate sulfate levels, and you can still get the balance you may be looking for. I use a little canning salt to get my chloride where i want it and add some sodium, and avoid loading up on calcium ( i like in 30's PPM for lagers).  cl/so4 ratio of .9-1.2- depending on what you want.

[klickitat jim]

Thanks I'll definitely keep that in mind

[erockrph]

FWIW, I don't add sulfate to my maltier lagers and I've never missed it. I shoot for about 80ppm of chloride from CaCl or a mix of CaCl and NaCl and adjust pH with lactic and that's it. I try to K.I.S.S. with my water additions and don't add something unless I see a clear need.

As far as recipe goes, I equate Dunkel with the flavor of Dark Munich malt. I do about 85% Dark Munich and 15% Pils. The Pils is mainly to boost the enzymes so it doesn't end up overly chewy. Honestly, I'm not even sure if it's needed, but it makes me feel better. I've enjoyed both WY2633 and 34/70 as the yeast for this. If you have a cake laying around from your Octoberfest, this is a great style to repitch into.

[Village Taphouse]

FWIW, I don't add sulfate to my maltier lagers and I've never missed it. I shoot for about 80ppm of chloride from CaCl or a mix of CaCl and NaCl and adjust pH with lactic and that's it. I try to K.I.S.S. with my water additions and don't add something unless I see a clear need.

As far as recipe goes, I equate Dunkel with the flavor of Dark Munich malt. I do about 85% Dark Munich and 15% Pils. The Pils is mainly to boost the enzymes so it doesn't end up overly chewy. Honestly, I'm not even sure if it's needed, but it makes me feel better. I've enjoyed both WY2633 and 34/70 as the yeast for this. If you have a cake laying around from your Octoberfest, this is a great style to repitch into.

Erock... are you building from distilled/RO (so NO sulfate at all) or are you using a source water that has some sulfate in it and you just choose to leave it there?  I have made the mistake of making darker, maltier beers with a lot of chloride and very little sulfate and I thought the beer lacked crispness.  I know that some styles don't seem like they should be crisp but I feel like there has to be some sulfate in the water.

[erockrph]

FWIW, I don't add sulfate to my maltier lagers and I've never missed it. I shoot for about 80ppm of chloride from CaCl or a mix of CaCl and NaCl and adjust pH with lactic and that's it. I try to K.I.S.S. with my water additions and don't add something unless I see a clear need.

As far as recipe goes, I equate Dunkel with the flavor of Dark Munich malt. I do about 85% Dark Munich and 15% Pils. The Pils is mainly to boost the enzymes so it doesn't end up overly chewy. Honestly, I'm not even sure if it's needed, but it makes me feel better. I've enjoyed both WY2633 and 34/70 as the yeast for this. If you have a cake laying around from your Octoberfest, this is a great style to repitch into.

Erock... are you building from distilled/RO (so NO sulfate at all) or are you using a source water that has some sulfate in it and you just choose to leave it there?  I have made the mistake of making darker, maltier beers with a lot of chloride and very little sulfate and I thought the beer lacked crispness.  I know that some styles don't seem like they should be crisp but I feel like there has to be some sulfate in the water.

I have a deep well with a fairly low mineral content. My well report came back "ND" for sulfate, in particular.

My thought is that if I feel like something is missing, I can always add it back in the next time I brew. But I really like to keep my water additions simple to start. I have noticed a lack of crispness when I've omitted sulfate from some styles, but Dunkel and Doppelbock seem to be just fine without it (at least to my palate).

[Village Taphouse]

FWIW, I don't add sulfate to my maltier lagers and I've never missed it. I shoot for about 80ppm of chloride from CaCl or a mix of CaCl and NaCl and adjust pH with lactic and that's it. I try to K.I.S.S. with my water additions and don't add something unless I see a clear need.

As far as recipe goes, I equate Dunkel with the flavor of Dark Munich malt. I do about 85% Dark Munich and 15% Pils. The Pils is mainly to boost the enzymes so it doesn't end up overly chewy. Honestly, I'm not even sure if it's needed, but it makes me feel better. I've enjoyed both WY2633 and 34/70 as the yeast for this. If you have a cake laying around from your Octoberfest, this is a great style to repitch into.

Erock... are you building from distilled/RO (so NO sulfate at all) or are you using a source water that has some sulfate in it and you just choose to leave it there?  I have made the mistake of making darker, maltier beers with a lot of chloride and very little sulfate and I thought the beer lacked crispness.  I know that some styles don't seem like they should be crisp but I feel like there has to be some sulfate in the water.

I have a deep well with a fairly low mineral content. My well report came back "ND" for sulfate, in particular.

My thought is that if I feel like something is missing, I can always add it back in the next time I brew. But I really like to keep my water additions simple to start. I have noticed a lack of crispness when I've omitted sulfate from some styles, but Dunkel and Doppelbock seem to be just fine without it (at least to my palate).

Interesting.  I agree with you... I like to keep water additions to a minimum.  I only use CaCl and CaSO4 and my additions are modest.  Just enough to boost my low calcium number (34) and in a ratio that is best for the style... festbier, helles, dunkel, etc... more chloride.  Pale Ale, Red Ale, Amber Ale, etc., more sulfate.  Cheers.

[denny]

Thanks guys:  Not for competition.  I hate shipping beer so this is just for personal consumption.  I love the Weyermann Carafa Special 3 but the most I have used in one 5-gallon batch is 2 ounces.  I notice that the slight roast character you get from it dissipates after the beer has lagered a bit and then you end up with a nice, smooth & chocolately flavor component.  It seems like many of these recipes are in the same zip code between the dark & light munich, possibly pilsner and then carafa of some variety.  I belong to a "German Brewing" and "Advanced German Brewing" group on FB and many there say that it looks promising and to go ahead with it "as-is" and then make adjustments from there.  I appreciate the direction gang.  Cheers.

if you're not already, throw the carafa at end of mash. I switched to carafa II and get no roast.

I have heard people suggest this many times.  So mill it like usual but keep it separate and add it to the mash when there is what... 5 minutes left?  You get color with less/no flavor?  Interesting.  I have never tried it.

Or just get yourself a bottle of Sinamar.  No flavor and easier to use than guessing at a grain amount.

[Village Taphouse]

So this beer was kegged, chilled and carbed this week.  I took a sneaky cobra tap sample (a 16oz sample, mind you) last night to see how it was.  I can't believe I haven't made this style before.  It's delicious and possibly one of the best beers I have made in awhile.  It even has good clarity although it's dark enough where it's hard to tell.  So let me ask you guys a question... and I'm not trying to break your brain:  What if you had a beer like this (dark, dunkel base with the same hops at 60 and 10) and then you added a good amount of late hops like Hallertau to boost the IBUs to 40 or something.  A hoppy dunkel.  Is this a style already?  It's not that this beer needs it and I'm not a hophead.  But my hop preference have certainly shifted over 16 years of brewing and I was just envisioning what this beer would be like with more hopitude.  Thoughts?

[brewday]

What if you had a beer like this (dark, dunkel base with the same hops at 60 and 10) and then you added a good amount of late hops like Hallertau to boost the IBUs to 40 or something.  A hoppy dunkel.  Is this a style already?  It's not that this beer needs it and I'm not a hophead.  But my hop preference have certainly shifted over 16 years of brewing and I was just envisioning what this beer would be like with more hopitude.  Thoughts?

West Coast Altbier.

[narvin]

What if you had a beer like this (dark, dunkel base with the same hops at 60 and 10) and then you added a good amount of late hops like Hallertau to boost the IBUs to 40 or something.  A hoppy dunkel.  Is this a style already?  It's not that this beer needs it and I'm not a hophead.  But my hop preference have certainly shifted over 16 years of brewing and I was just envisioning what this beer would be like with more hopitude.  Thoughts?

West Coast Altbier.

It could be similar to a sticke alt.

[Village Taphouse]

Hmm, I've never heard of a West Coast Altbier.  I also realize that some consider alt and kolsch to be a sort of lager but a dunkel is certainly a lager made with lager yeast.  Would a sticke Alt have as much color as a dunkel?  This one was made with 2308 which is certainly adding some great, Munich-like character.  I also have the private collection 2352 Munich Lager 2 (Augustiner's yeast, apparently) in my yeast fridge and it will probably be up and running after the first of the year.  My plan is to make this same Dunkel with that yeast and then maybe make this "vision" I have where I use something at 60 (Magnum, etc) and then an ounce of Hallertau at 15, 10, 5, 2, etc. and hop it like a pale ale or something.  Hoppy Uncle Dunkel. 

[erockrph]

I think late hops tend to fight the malt and never end up the way you were hoping. I've tried brewing hoppy Octoberfests in the past and I always thought that the late hops were lower than hoped because the maltiness overshadowed it. I also find that by the time lagering is finished the late hops are starting to fade as well.

Hoppy altbiers tend to lean towards a solid bittering addition, although they definitely have moe late hop character than a Dunkel. It won't hurt to try what your planning, but I'd keep a reasonable expectation for the kind of late hop character you'll end up with.

[Village Taphouse]

I think late hops tend to fight the malt and never end up the way you were hoping. I've tried brewing hoppy Octoberfests in the past and I always thought that the late hops were lower than hoped because the maltiness overshadowed it. I also find that by the time lagering is finished the late hops are starting to fade as well.

Hoppy altbiers tend to lean towards a solid bittering addition, although they definitely have moe late hop character than a Dunkel. It won't hurt to try what your planning, but I'd keep a reasonable expectation for the kind of late hop character you'll end up with.

Good call on the idea of lagering possibly dimishing the late hop character.  I hadn't thought of that but I'll tell you what... this dunkel is delicious right now.  I'm sure that 8 weeks of cold storage will improve it even more but I had three pints of it last night and I was really pleased with it.  Your approach sounds reasonable... try making a hoppy dunkel with moderate expectations.  Cheers.

[atodd]

Maybe I missed it in here but has anybody used 98% Avangard Dark Munich and 2% Carafa II without any issues?  I just bought some from a different homebrew supply store.  I am just wondering if some Pilsner malt in there is a good idea?