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Author Topic: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?  (Read 25738 times)

Offline mchrispen

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2015, 10:27:13 am »
I am wondering the same.

On my RIMS, with a very coarse grind, a similar hochkurz step mash consistently results in about a 5% (roughly) increase in extract efficiency over a simple infusion - both leveraging a mash out step at 170F. I speculated in a different post that perhaps simply the length of the mash (~75 minutes infusion with mashout vs ~120 minutes step mashing to mash out) may have more completely hydrated the starches for conversion. I use identical crush settings for both infusion and stepped mashes, and both will feature a fairly fast circulation of the wort through the grain bed.

I have not done triple blind tastings to confirm any of this relative to flavor, mouthfeel or head retention issues.



Matt Chrispen
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Offline stpug

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2015, 11:08:36 am »
Your test is flawed. You should have doughed in at 150 for this to make a difference, You stepped them both there.....

In other words, you're saying that the 104F dough-in was a problem for both batches?

Also, the first batch was the only batch that was stepped to 150F. The second was stepped to 145F and never saw 150 until 40 minutes later, at which point it "flew" by 150 on it's way to 158F.

Please elaborate if you will on your above comment. I'd like to have a better understanding.

rabeb25

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2015, 11:15:05 am »
Your test is flawed. You should have doughed in at 150 for this to make a difference, You stepped them both there.....

In other words, you're saying that the 104F dough-in was a problem for both batches?

Also, the first batch was the only batch that was stepped to 150F. The second was stepped to 145F and never saw 150 until 40 minutes later, at which point it "flew" by 150 on it's way to 158F.

Please elaborate if you will on your above comment. I'd like to have a better understanding.

She was "testing" a single infusion at 150. A single infusion at 150 would not start at 104, it would start at.........150. So ramping from 104, you hit all the beta (starting at 135ish) to 150. Its also is flawed as she stepped from 150 to mash out, hitting beta and alpha along the way. As a single infusion would not step there. If ANYTHING it would be sparge that tempers it direct to mash out temps.

So you basically have 2 step mashed beers

A 104/150/175
B 104/145/158/175

A single infusion would look like ........ 150.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 11:17:28 am by rabeb25 »

Offline AmandaK

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2015, 11:19:47 am »
You're splitting hairs.

If you want 'better' data, I would invite you to do it yourself.
Amanda Burkemper
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rabeb25

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2015, 11:30:52 am »
You're splitting hairs.

If you want 'better' data, I would invite you to do it yourself.

I have the better data, as I have already done this.

How am I splitting hairs? Did you not say you were doing a test of a step mash vs a single infusion? How is splitting hairs when you stepped both of them and are looking for eye-opening results from pretty much the same beers?

Mash one in a cooler with a single infusion. Then mash one on your system with the ramps and the constant recirc. I can already tell you the winner.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 11:33:12 am by rabeb25 »

Offline udubdawg

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2015, 11:36:33 am »
remember giving me your garage code? 

Yeah, I may have switched the labels on your fermenters, so what you think you know, is totally backwards, sorry.

 ;D

Offline AmandaK

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2015, 11:44:20 am »
I have the better data, as I have already done this.

You haven't shared it, but expect people to know the results. Great. I am sharing my curiosity and data and all you care to do is rip it up for some wording. I am not hiding anything here. People can decide for themselves if this will apply to them. You talk as if I am hiding the fact that these were performed the way they were.
 
How am I splitting hairs? Did you not say you were doing a test of a step mash vs a single infusion? How is splitting hairs when you stepped both of them and are looking for eye-opening results from pretty much the same beers?

Mash one in a cooler with a single infusion. Then mash one on your system with the ramps and the constant recirc. I can already tell you the winner.

You're nit-picking about my wording. That is splitting hairs. I haven't hidden any of the process. I also fully expect for these beers to be remarkably similar. How similar is the question for me.

You are telling me that keeping the dough in and mashout the same on each beer was an inexcusable fault, yet you want me to introduce another huge variable in completely switching equipment? How would that make this any better? All I want to know is if 145/158 is different than 150, everything else being absolutely equal.
Amanda Burkemper
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rabeb25

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2015, 11:55:39 am »
Quote
So, we've all heard that there is definitely a difference between mashing with a single infusion and mashing using a step Hochkurz. Better malt character/better attenuation/better efficiency with the 145F/158F of the Hochkurz, etc. I believe(d?) it. I did it. I probably even spouted the same thing as fact.

So apparently I either read that wrong, or you are now saying something different than your initial post says.

I never said you were hiding anything, I merely said your comparison of a single infusion and a step mash beer is flawed. I still stand here and say it. You are stepping both beers, recirculating them the entire time. That isn't even close to a single infusion.


As for the data, it is shared... its out there.


All these flawed "science" experiments around here are getting a bit tiresome.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 12:01:47 pm by rabeb25 »

Offline AmandaK

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2015, 12:01:04 pm »
All these flawed "science" experiments around here are getting a bit tiresome.

I have asked for your data and process in other threads and have gotten either no answer or a "it's complicated" or something else. So I'll ask again, please post your data and findings so that we all may learn.
Amanda Burkemper
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BJCP Assistant (to the) Midwest Rep
BJCP Grand Master/Mead/Cider


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rabeb25

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2015, 12:04:40 pm »
All these flawed "science" experiments around here are getting a bit tiresome.

I have asked for your data and process in other threads and have gotten either no answer or a "it's complicated" or something else. So I'll ask again, please post your data and findings so that we all may learn.

This one is all in German and you will need to translate it.

http://www.amazon.com/Die-Bierbrauerei-Technologie-rzebereitung-German-ebook/dp/B00DF3UA1S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1449083004&sr=8-1&keywords=narzi%C3%9F+die+bierbrauerei


https://www.vlb-berlin.org/en/technology-brewing-and-malting


http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com


There you are... The sources.


When someone proves these wrong, you will then be the best brewer in history.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 12:06:36 pm by rabeb25 »

Offline AmandaK

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2015, 12:10:17 pm »
What about your data and conclusions that you spoke about?
Amanda Burkemper
KC Bier Meisters Lifetime Member - KCBM 3x AHA Club of the Year!!
BJCP Assistant (to the) Midwest Rep
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rabeb25

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2015, 12:13:30 pm »
What about your data and conclusions that you spoke about?

See previous post.

Offline AmandaK

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2015, 12:19:00 pm »
What about your data and conclusions that you spoke about?

See previous post.

Are you Narziss, Kai, or Kunze? You had said "I have the better data, as I have already done this.", which would lead me to believe you were going to share your actual data and conclusions, not quote the great German brewing authors.
Amanda Burkemper
KC Bier Meisters Lifetime Member - KCBM 3x AHA Club of the Year!!
BJCP Assistant (to the) Midwest Rep
BJCP Grand Master/Mead/Cider


Our Homebrewed Wedding, AHA Article

rabeb25

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2015, 12:25:18 pm »
What about your data and conclusions that you spoke about?

See previous post.

Are you Narziss, Kai, or Kunze? You had said "I have the better data, as I have already done this.", which would lead me to believe you were going to share your actual data and conclusions, not quote the great German brewing authors.

Oh, my data. Yup, step mash is better(when done properly).

Offline PrettyBeard

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2015, 12:34:21 pm »
What about your data and conclusions that you spoke about?

See previous post.

Are you Narziss, Kai, or Kunze? You had said "I have the better data, as I have already done this.", which would lead me to believe you were going to share your actual data and conclusions, not quote the great German brewing authors.

Oh, my data. Yup, step mash is better(when done properly).

For someone complaining about faulty science, that sounds a lot more like a conclusion then it does data.